Harper stands against EU

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is not a black and white issue

It is about as black and white as it can get. They are asking us to lend them money. They are currently a lousy credit risk. As lenders we set terms that provide us with a comfort level with respect to our risk and the likelihood of repayment. As it stands we don't like how they run their business, which has a direct impact on repayment.

If they don't like our terms, they are free to shop around and ask someone else.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Who are you, Glen Beck?

Absolutely, I'm Glen Beck. I'm Putin, I'm also Donald Driver, Grand Moff Tarkin, the universal symbol for radiation, and the long lost cousin of Prince Charles.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

It is about as black and white as it can get. They are asking us to lend them money. They are currently a lousy credit risk. As lenders we set terms that provide us with a comfort level with respect to our risk and the likelihood of repayment. As it stands we don't like how they run their business, which has a direct impact on repayment.

If they don't like our terms, they are free to shop around and ask someone else.

It's not black and white at all actually. We aren't being asked to loan directly to insolvent governments. We're being asked to up the contribution to a reserve fund in case of a cascading bank run in one of the big economies. The IMF is a key institution in the international monetary system to maintain stability.

Your approach is the cut of my nose to spite my face policy. Sure we can act indignant and not help out to build a fund that could overwhelm a national banking system with liquidity or we can recognize that a banking collapse in a big EU country would be bad for everyone.

This has nothing to do with bailing out profligate governments. This is to avert a banking collapse spurned by political and economic uncertainty.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

It's not black and white at all actually. We aren't being asked to loan directly to insolvent governments. We're being asked to up the contribution to a reserve fund in case of a cascading bank run in one of the big economies. The IMF is a key institution in the international monetary system to maintain stability.

Your approach is the cut of my nose to spite my face policy. Sure we can act indignant and not help out to build a fund that could overwhelm a national banking system with liquidity or we can recognize that a banking collapse in a big EU country would be bad for everyone.

This has nothing to do with bailing out profligate governments. This is to avert a banking collapse spurned by political and economic uncertainty.

That is a fair characterization, but the fact is that the problem could at least be mitigated by the issue of Euro-bonds. The Germans refuse to back that action though. While you might see this as an amateur opinion, I have hard time thinking that Canada should help build a bailout fund when there is a pretty clear option that some involved parties just don't want to do.

[seattleflamer]

It is perception though. Even developing economies like Mexico and the Brics are making contributions to shore up the IMF knowing that what happens in Europe will affect their economies.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...07610576.html?

I can understand the US acting unilaterally which is par for the course for this country but Canada's actions seem like hubris. Do the Tories really believe what happens in Europe won't impact Canada?

And if not, why wouldn't you want to participate in the mechanism the G20 has agreed to?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Slava

That is a fair characterization, but the fact is that the problem could at least be mitigated by the issue of Euro-bonds. The Germans refuse to back that action though. While you might see this as an amateur opinion, I have hard time thinking that Canada should help build a bailout fund when there is a pretty clear option that some involved parties just don't want to do.

I also support deeper fiscal EU integration through a common bond. But lets be realistic here, the Eurobond isn't an economic issue, it's a political flashpoint and not something we should be hanging our hats on while the walls come down. Sure the Eurobond is where we need to eventually go if the Euro is to have any future but in the meantime we should also be taking other contingency measures like shoring up the IMF.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I also support deeper fiscal EU integration through a common bond. But lets be realistic here, the Eurobond isn't an economic issue, it's a political flashpoint and not something we should be hanging our hats on while the walls come down. Sure the Eurobond is where we need to eventually go if the Euro is to have any future but in the meantime we should also be taking other contingency measures like shoring up the IMF.

Well, while we're being realistic let's go the whole way; the issue in Europe is a political issue. There is enough money for a full bailout fund, but no one important has the political will to commit it.

[SebC]

“We all know what to do, we just don’t know how to get re-elected after we’ve done it.” - Jean-Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg and president of the Euro Group

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

It's not black and white at all actually. We aren't being asked to loan directly to insolvent governments. We're being asked to up the contribution to a reserve fund in case of a cascading bank run in one of the big economies. The IMF is a key institution in the international monetary system to maintain stability.

A reserve fund dominated by European control. The same Europeans who are begging like paupers to prop their piggy bank up without the slightest inclination toward sharing control of the IMF, or taking a solid look in the mirror to see what they are doing wrong themselves.

[JD]

Originally Posted by SebC

“We all know what to do, we just don’t know how to get re-elected after we’ve done it.” - Jean-Claude Juncker, Prime Minister of Luxembourg and president of the Euro Group

Wow, now that is honesty I can appreciate!

[Tinordi]

Maybe it is black and white, just in the reverse?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4367858/

Nor is Mr. Finley accurate in diagnosing Europe’s “big-government approach” as causing “massive debt.” According to the conservative Heritage Foundation and the CIA, the governments of Spain and Canada chew through about the same share of national income (45.8 per cent and 44.1 per cent, respectively), yet Spain’s total public debt (68.2 per cent) remains well under Canada’s (83.5 per cent).

Nor is Mr. Finley right that “ending overregulation” is a panacea for reviving European economies. If it were, then Ireland, which the Heritage Foundation ranks ninth worldwide for economic freedom, should be healthy and Germany, in 26th place, should be in crisis – but the opposite is true. Ireland’s debt crisis began not by overregulation, but sloppy deregulation of Irish banks, whose errors necessitated a government bailout.

But Mr. Finley is at his most ironic in blaming “socialism” for overspending and debt. Spain’s Socialist government inherited a budget deficit in 2004 and deftly reversed it into a large surplus, at least until the Spanish housing bubble burst. In contrast, Canada’s Conservative government inherited a budget surplus in 2006 and ineptly made it into a deficit – and they have no excuse that Canada’s housing bubble burst.

The Senator let his mouth get ahead of his facts. But where all reasonable people agree is that Europe has made foolish mistakes. The design of the euro was one hand clapping – a monetary union, without accompanying fiscal constraints. European leaders also ignored Eurostat’s loud shrieks that Greece was cooking its books. Plainly, the crisis was brought on by pan-European failures of governance, not just Greek, Spanish, Irish or Portuguese failures.

But do Europe’s mistakes justify the Conservative government’s idling and hectoring on an international financial intervention? No. Future – and historical – considerations make that extremely unwise.

About the future: Canada and the European Union are negotiating a free trade agreement, which would give our people (33-million) preferential terms to export to their people (500-million). The possible expansion – or not – of Canadian economic opportunities into a trade bloc 16 times our size is obviously a breathtakingly important, and once-in-a-lifetime issue. Conservative scolding of the Europeans is not helping seal the deal.

This whole moral righteousness of the Conservatives vis-as-vis Europe is just an embarrassment. But then again the Conservatives never cared about that, and instead opt as they always do to throwing juicy morsels of red meat to the base as evidenced in this very thread.

[bosox_fan05]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

But Mr. Finley is at his most ironic in blaming “socialism” for overspending and debt. Spain’s Socialist government inherited a budget deficit in 2004 and deftly reversed it into a large surplus, at least until the Spanish housing bubble burst. In contrast, Canada’s Conservative government inherited a budget surplus in 2006 and ineptly made it into a deficit – and they have no excuse that Canada’s housing bubble burst.

This paragraph is very misleading and clearly biased.

The 2008 recession obviously affected both Spain and Canada. The writer wants us to believe that the Spanish government did a great job because their housing bubble burst and they ran a defecit and the Tories did a poor job because Canada's housing bubble didn't burst and they still ran a defecit? Come on.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Maybe it is black and white, just in the reverse?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4367858/



This whole moral righteousness of the Conservatives vis-as-vis Europe is just an embarrassment. But then again the Conservatives never cared about that, and instead opt as they always do to throwing juicy morsels of red meat to the base as evidenced in this very thread.

"yet Spain’s total public debt (68.2 per cent) remains well under Canada’s (83.5 per cent)."

It's not clear to me from the article when they say 68.2% and 83.5%, what is this a percentage of? debt/?

[Senator Clay Davis]

I believe it its debt as a % of GDP.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by bosox_fan05

This paragraph is very misleading and clearly biased.

The 2008 recession obviously affected both Spain and Canada. The writer wants us to believe that the Spanish government did a great job because their housing bubble burst and they ran a defecit and the Tories did a poor job because Canada's housing bubble didn't burst and they still ran a defecit? Come on.

Also: "Public debt should not be confused with external debt, which reflects the foreign currency liabilities of both the private and public sector and must be financed out of foreign exchange earnings." - CIA website

So really the article is cherry-picking statistics to make its argument. Total debt would include both public and external and that's where Spain takes off like a shot. Spain = $2.57 trillion; Canada = $1.181 trillion

The big thinkers should probably get to the bottom of this one, too: Canada - 7.5% unemployment; Spain - 21.7% unemployment.

[Rerun]

And then there were five: Cyprus seeks EU aid

A fifth euro zone country turned to Brussels for emergency funding on Monday when Cyprus announced it was seeking a lifeline for its banks and its budget, hours after Spain submitted a formal request to bail out its banks.

Global share prices and the euro slid as investors bet that European leaders - due to meet this week for the 20th time since the currency zone's debt crisis hit Greece in 2010 - would fail to come up with radical measures to back up weak countries.

Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel dashed any hope that Berlin would allow joint bonds issued by the euro zone or other measures sought by partners.

Cyprus joins Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain in seeking EU rescue funds, meaning more than a quarter of the 17 euro zone members are now in the bloc's emergency ward. Italy's funding costs have soared too, which means it could be next.

Spain formally submitted its request for up to 100 billion euros of funds to bail out its banks, agreed on June 9.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8HPASE20120625