Quebec is headed for independence, Michael Ignatieff tells the BBC

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by nik-

a chain event of successions would be ideal, first the north, then the island of Montreal. Until all that's left is the redneck Quebecer's and Quebec City.

Then we could all sit back and laugh.

Even Quebec City is not really a Bloc stronghold per se. Right now for example, all of their MPs are NDP. Quebec City has 5 MPs... here is a how it has broken down in the past.

2011 = 5 NDP

2008 = 3 CCP, 2 BQ

2006 = 4 CCP, 1 BQ

2004 = 5 BQ

2000 = 3 BQ, 2 Lib

1997 = 5 BQ

1993 = 5 BQ

1988 = 5 PC

1984 = 5 PC

1980 = 5 Lib

1979 = 5 Lib

It breaks down to:

21 BQ, 17 Con., 12 Lib., and 5 NDP (most of the BQ MPs came during a 20 year stretch).

[19Yzerman19]

Time to give them a little push out the door... what funding can we cut or bill can we pass to spark outrage and increase separatist rhetoric that will seem disproportionate and knee-jerk from the perspective of Anglo Canada?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Yeah, the Native question is an interesting one, as it's really the only separation within separation that could happen. And as you said, there could be a lot of other scenarios too.

But the idea that there will be some sort of caveat that Montreal might stay or other parts of English speaking Quebec is pretty silly. The people against it there will be forced to make a decision if they want to live in the new country or leave.

All that said, I'm pretty sure Quebec never separates. As many have said, it's the threat that has power, not the actual act. And the people who truly dream of their own Quebec nation become fewer and fewer each year.

I do wish the government would 'stand up' to the separatists as well, for lack of a better phrase. Even if they don't want to take a hard line approach, I don't know why they don't advertise their side more within Quebec. IE the realities that this constant talk of separation has on the economy etc.

I don't think that's really true, if the sovereignty vote passes a region like Montreal would be able to hold their own referendum on whether to stay or go and if they vote that they want to stay in Canada, the ROC has to include them in their negotiations.

There are a lot of misunderstandings by the Separatists, among them that they would have the ability to charge transport fees for goods transported across Quebec from On to NB without Canada being able to do anything.

As well there is the questions of the St Lawrence Seaways. Because its been declared Canadian Waters in Confederation, I don't believe that Quebec can simply declare it as their national waters on separation.

[Daradon]

IF Quebec separates, Montreal will not have a separate referendum, or referendum back.

I know a lot of Anglophones think this, and it's not illogical, but that's just not how nation state politics works. Ultimately you'd just end up dividing into messier and messier territories. Even Israel isn't that chopped up.

Regardless it's moot cause the question wont come up. And that's part of the reason. Besides being a bad idea, even for Quebec, it would be a massive project just to figure out and implement.

[CaptainCrunch]

Except that if Quebec votes to separate they're not a sovereign nation at that point, the boundries and outlines must be decided in consultation and negotiation with the ROC.

On top of that there are some interesting thoughts. Quebec keeps saying that they'll use our currency. Won't that basically make them a vassal state as their monetary policy will be decided by another country without their feedback.

As well there are 80 trade agreements that Quebec is part of, if they leave Canada they lose membership in all of them and would have to re-apply, these would be blocked by Canada.

I just don't see how Quebec would become anything but a fourth world nation right now.

I was reading right now that Quebec's Debt to GDP ratio is at 49% which is pretty disgusting, if they choose to separate and were forced to take a buy out share of the national debt, that would jump to 90% based on an article I read, That would put them in a poor position to borrow money going forward.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Quebec is not seperating ever. The loss of multiple corporations leaving Montreal (Air Canada, Bell, Bombardier, CNR, National Bank of Canada, Quebecor, VIA Rail) would be devastating to the Quebec economy. In 50 years when most of the rural folks are dead, seperation will never come up again.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Quebec is not seperating ever. The loss of multiple corporations leaving Montreal (Air Canada, Bell, Bombardier, CNR, National Bank of Canada, Quebecor, VIA Rail) would be devastating to the Quebec economy. In 50 years when most of the rural folks are dead, seperation will never come up again.

What are you cooking up......

[jammies]

People that think it would be better for Canada to get rid of Quebec and encourage them to separate are just as dumb as the separatists in Quebec are. You are putting your selfish regional interests above the interests of the nation, and what's worse, you are doing so because you are mad at the PQ for putting their selfish regional interests above those of the nation.

Hypocrites and fools.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except that if Quebec votes to separate they're not a sovereign nation at that point, the boundries and outlines must be decided in consultation and negotiation with the ROC.

On top of that there are some interesting thoughts. Quebec keeps saying that they'll use our currency. Won't that basically make them a vassal state as their monetary policy will be decided by another country without their feedback.

As well there are 80 trade agreements that Quebec is part of, if they leave Canada they lose membership in all of them and would have to re-apply, these would be blocked by Canada.

I just don't see how Quebec would become anything but a fourth world nation right now.

I was reading right now that Quebec's Debt to GDP ratio is at 49% which is pretty disgusting, if they choose to separate and were forced to take a buy out share of the national debt, that would jump to 90% based on an article I read, That would put them in a poor position to borrow money going forward.

Well again, it just doesn't have to be that way at all. I get that there could be some vitriol and dislike, but that doesn't mean that Canada will block their attempts to be a member of any trade organizations. Quebec could also use our currency. It could be to their detriment, and they might wish they didn't at some point, but they definitely could do so.

I'm not at all advocating for Quebec to separate, and I doubt that they would vote for that today. I would hope that they didn't. I just think that the pre-emptive "they would face ruin and nothing they would try would work" isn't necessarily accurate.

[CaptainCrunch]

I would like to see a meeting between Marois and Harper

Where Harper walks in wearing this including the Mullet wig



He stares at Marois as she begins to bluster.

Marois - "Mister Prime Minister, we demand that Quebec be declared a sovereign nation, we are going to use your currency, your passports and the St Lawrence Seaway belongs to us"

Harper looks at her like she farted in church and simply says

Harper - "Madam Premier You are in a position to demand *nothing*. I, on the other hand, am in a position to *grant* nothing"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well again, it just doesn't have to be that way at all. I get that there could be some vitriol and dislike, but that doesn't mean that Canada will block their attempts to be a member of any trade organizations. Quebec could also use our currency. It could be to their detriment, and they might wish they didn't at some point, but they definitely could do so.

I'm not at all advocating for Quebec to separate, and I doubt that they would vote for that today. I would hope that they didn't. I just think that the pre-emptive "they would face ruin and nothing they would try would work" isn't necessarily accurate.

The trade organization membership is one of the key hammers that Canada has if Quebec refuses to recognize a share of the national debt, or agrees to it only to renege later.

Its also a major hammer if Quebec decides to enact a toll on Canadian goods crossing Quebec on the way to the Eastern Promises.

Its not about dislike or vitriol, Its about using the tools to preserve Canada's economy going forward

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well again, it just doesn't have to be that way at all. I get that there could be some vitriol and dislike, but that doesn't mean that Canada will block their attempts to be a member of any trade organizations. Quebec could also use our currency. It could be to their detriment, and they might wish they didn't at some point, but they definitely could do so.

I'm not at all advocating for Quebec to separate, and I doubt that they would vote for that today. I would hope that they didn't. I just think that the pre-emptive "they would face ruin and nothing they would try would work" isn't necessarily accurate.

I agree. If Quebec separated, it would be in the best interests for both sides to cooperate as much as possible to limit the pain for everyone. As much as we'd like to turn our noses up at them and watch them struggle, we'd be hurting ourselves by doing so. There are too many ways Quebec and the rest of Canada are connected.

If Quebec did create their own currency, it would likely be worth less than the CAD and would just give the Americans a cheaper option to set up businesses and buy raw materials.

Honestly though, I would favour a federation of autonomous regions. This is becoming more an more common in the world and especially makes sense in a country like Canada that is so big and has such varying regional interests.

[Swift]

Let's look at it the other way. If Quebec separated, what would Canada lose?

[CaptainCrunch]

A central transportation hub, a beautiful province. The greatest looking strippers in the world.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Poutine, smoked meat, Club Supersexe, 50% or more of our culture. Losing Montreal alone would be brutal to Canada.

[nik-]

We'd have to just invade Montreal and the St. Lawrence seaway. Significantly more than half the population would throw us a parade anyway.

[CaptainCrunch]

One separatist friend claimed, that if there was separation that the Canadians would have to change their names because the name would be an insult to a sovereign Quebec and the franchise would be moved to the Capital of Quebec.

Personally I think if Quebec separated, it would be the end to any thought of a Quebec city franchise, and the Habs would eventually end of moving away due to economic troubles and the fact that no player in his right mind would move there.

[nik-]

The Habs probably have more political sway than the separatists. The Nords were the separatist team anyway.

[flamesfever]

I think with separation the nation would be quite divided as to how to negotiate the terms. Because of the large amount of trade between Ontario and Quebec, Ontario would be quite easy on Quebec, whereas the West would be probably tend to bargain much harder.

Also, with regard to currency, I would think Quebec would be more inclined to use the US dollar as their currency.

However, the older I get, the more I would hate to lose the uniqueness of Quebec culture, as I feel it is a very important and integral part of who we are as a nation.

[CaptainCrunch]

The issue with using anyone elses currency is that you lose control of your economy and become a servant state, you can't effectively budget or even trade.

Also the country that owns it might not be too happy with someone else hijacking your currency because it effects the value of your dollar.