A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[Bobblehead]

I sort of thought of this thread as a place to discuss anything and everything so we don't spoil the story for folks who haven't read the books. So generally a place to talk about anything that should have been in spoiler tags in the other thread

I don't like the Melisandre/Stannis change. I've always pictured Stannis as doing what is "right" regardless of the consequences. Davos saved Stannig during the siege and was made a knight yet Stannis still chopped off the ends of his finger; Stannis is fighting to be king because he knows he is the rightful heir even though he has little to no support. Yet here is having an affair? It just seems so out of character and seems to violate the character I know from the books.

[Bigtime]

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?

May well be, but I missed it.

I re-read the series after season 1 and even though I was looking for hints about Renly and Loras I didn't really see anything that would point to that. Things that in hindsight you could make fit, but nothing that made me wonder why I didn't see it the first time.
So I guess I can be pretty oblivious to some of Martin's hints, but it just didn't seem to fit with the character of Stannis I thought I knew.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Hmm, I'm thinking back to the books and it is never said that Stannis and Melisandre were getting it on, but I could have sworn it was implied a few times. Am I wrong?

I guess even a guy that does the right thing has to have his one flaw? Perhaps that's what the HBO folks were thinking?

I just finished book 2 and have moved onto book 3.

It is definitely hinted at, moreso as a result of rumours from Stannis' supporters.

At the start of the 3rd book he's said to have not left his chambers and never eats. It's just him and Melisandre together 24/7.

I agree with everything Bobblehead said, but I think Stannis screwing Melisandre is within the acceptable story because he's overcome by her. That and it was his wife's idea. Maybe she's cool with it.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

May well be, but I missed it.

I re-read the series after season 1 and even though I was looking for hints about Renly and Loras I didn't really see anything that would point to that. Things that in hindsight you could make fit, but nothing that made me wonder why I didn't see it the first time.
So I guess I can be pretty oblivious to some of Martin's hints, but it just didn't seem to fit with the character of Stannis I thought I knew.

When Melisandra births her shadow Davos knows who the shadow is - the book never comes out and says, but it is strongly implied it is Stannis since that is who Davos knows best.

Also when Melisandra visits Davos in the dungeons after he is rescued, she says the king's fires are too low to draw from him so she wants to use Davos instead.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Ped

When Melisandra births her shadow Davos knows who the shadow is - the book never comes out and says, but it is strongly implied it is Stannis since that is who Davos knows best.

Also when Melisandra visits Davos in the dungeons after he is rescued, she says the king's fires are too low to draw from him so she wants to use Davos instead.

I just didn't associate that as being carnal draw.

I'm way too innocent to pick up on those. Well, at least when I don't picture that as part of the character's character I don't pick up on it.

[IronDave]

So what actually happened to Lyanna? How did she die? I believe Rhegar took her and then all the stories deviate from each other it seems.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by IronDave

So what actually happened to Lyanna? How did she die? I believe Rhegar took her and then all the stories deviate from each other it seems.

There's no guarantee that Rhaegar "took" her. All that is known is that she ended up with Rhaegar and then died. Whether or not she was taken or went willingly, or died in childbirth (Jon appears to be the prevailing theory, but who knows) or of some other illness, or even of suicide, has not been made clear yet.

[Rubicant]

Well I guess I misinterpreted this thread's purpose

I guess I shall return once I have caught up on the TV series from this season.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Well I guess I misinterpreted this thread's purpose

I guess I shall return once I have caught up on the TV series from this season.

Book talk is allowed but you should expect some book vs tv show talk that contains spoilers that would ruin the TV only thread for the TV only people.

[IronDave]

Originally Posted by Ped

There's no guarantee that Rhaegar "took" her. All that is known is that she ended up with Rhaegar and then died. Whether or not she was taken or went willingly, or died in childbirth (Jon appears to be the prevailing theory, but who knows) or of some other illness, or even of suicide, has not been made clear yet.

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

[WhiteTiger]

I dunno. Given Stannis' predilection for doing the 'honorable' thing, and his sheer adherence to that no matter what, I'd say that he's not likely having an affair with Melisandre. In the books, given Melisandre's draw to the blood of kings, I'd say it's more likely that Stannis gives her any blood of his she wants to do whatever with.

Also, in the books, isn't one of the 'standing jokes' among his men just how much Stannis doesn't like sex? He was said to have 'done his duty by his wife once", and once he had a daughter, he hasn't since?

Alsoalso...does the shooting to 'fame' of AGOT make anyone else who's been reading along the entire time feel kind of like a hipster?

"How do you know so much about the storyline?"
"Well, I have read all the books at least 3-4 times."
"Books? But the show's only been out for a single season!"
"Yeah..."

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Alsoalso...does the shooting to 'fame' of AGOT make anyone else who's been reading along the entire time feel kind of like a hipster?

"How do you know so much about the storyline?"
"Well, I have read all the books at least 3-4 times."
"Books? But the show's only been out for a single season!"
"Yeah..."

Kind of - though in my case it's more that my excuse for not remembering details is that it was 15 years ago that I read the book (my "to read" list is too long and free time too limited to re-read something 3 or 4 times).

[Bigtime]

I can't pull the hispter card here, as I only heard about the series when season one came out. So I decided to read the books first.

[Ped]

[QUOTE=WhiteTiger;3649611]I dunno. Given Stannis' predilection for doing the 'honorable' thing, and his sheer adherence to that no matter what, I'd say that he's not likely having an affair with Melisandre. In the books, given Melisandre's draw to the blood of kings, I'd say it's more likely that Stannis gives her any blood of his she wants to do whatever with.

Also, in the books, isn't one of the 'standing jokes' among his men just how much Stannis doesn't like sex? He was said to have 'done his duty by his wife once", and once he had a daughter, he hasn't since?
QUOTE]
Yeah, but it also notes that Melisandre is not his wife, referring to the fact that Melisandre is much more beautiful than his skinny wife with the mustache.

[Tinordi]

It's heavily implied in the book that Stannis are Melisandre are having an affair.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by IronDave

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

Not really implied as much as left to one's imagination thus far...

Dondarrion's squire did tell Arya that he knew Jon's birth mother - but whether the woman in question really was Jon's birth mother or a switch was done between a child of Lyanna/? and a random woman hasn't been revealed. But there is obviously a big secret with Jon's parentage. And Jon is definitely part Stark. And Lyanna made Ned promise her something as she lay dying. Seems to fit that the promise was not to tell of Jon's real father since all the other Targaryens were being ruthlessly slaughtered.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by IronDave

I do remember reading that there was a good chance that Jon is fact Lyanna's son and that Ned was protecting him and calling him his son by her wishes. Was it also implied that he was Rhaegar's son then and therefore he is a hybrid Stark-Targaryan? If so that would be a great storyline to integrate into the rise of the Targaryans in book 6-7.

It was not so much implied as hinted at that Jon could be Rhaegar's son. First, despite what were originally led to believe, Rhaegar most likely fell in love with Lyanna and she him so it was not so much an abduction as it was an elopement of sorts. Then you got the dreams and #### you can interpret but I think the biggest sign is you got 3 of the 7 King's guards, who's sole purpose is to protect the King and his family, who were left to protect/guard Lyanna including Arthur Dayne during a war where real Targs were being slaughtered.

In my opinion it was pretty much solid that Jon was going to be Rhaegar's son but now it will end up being decades between the first Jon is Rhaegar son theory to the actual reveal which was probably meant to be pretty shocking will end up pretty "meh knew it" so I could see him changing that up.

As for Stannis and Melisandre, I thought it was more than just implied there later in the book (or next book). I didn't picture Stannis giving into temptation and lust as much as a doing it for duty though.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Re: Stannis and Melisandre

Davis chapter, book 3. About 350 pages in.

When talking about the shadow that she birthed at Storms End, "shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off anymore to make another son. It might well kill him."

Then:

"with another man, though a man whose flames still burn hot and high if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one might. I could give you pleasure, such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."


Stannis and Melisandre definitely had an affair. Unless she's lying or conceived the shadow some other way.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I didn't want to spoil the other thread but there was more stuff I wanted to mention.

I can see why they'd make Margaery more involved now, given her association to future events.

Shae being Sansa's chambermaid sets up for some interesting akwardness when Tyrion and Sansa tie the knot.

I just read in book 3 a quote from one of Jon's wildling friends that I found interesting. Mentioned that they dug up so many graves looking for the Horn of Whatever-It's-Called and said something like "and we loosed all them shadows". Shadows wasn't the word used though. Almost made me think like they thought they were responsible for the wights/others and that they'd released them when they were searching for the horn.