Toronto Raptors 2011/2012 Season

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, Atlanta's just a brutal matchup for them. I'm really thinking this team is not bad enough to get a high lottery pick, but too bad to be a playoff team. If Colangelo does have a shot to grab Wilson Chandler once he's done in China, I think he's got to jump on it.

Hawks can play defense which is a straight out killer for the Raptors. Just means their only option is Barbosa in chuck mode. Plus even though he is very good at creating his own shot the Hawks were contesting a lot of them.

With the Nets all they had to concentrate on was DW. Against the Hawks they have multiple options on offense as well so not stopping them with ease either. They can only beat other sucky teams and they do so to very little benefit.

The deadline can't get here fast enough. I so want to see Jose and Barbosa go down the road. They need to just get on will FULL OUT TANKING!

[PeteLFan]

100-64 !!!!

Shameful team

[killer_carlson]

that was a poor effort last night. that's the kind of effort that sees jobs lost.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

that was a poor effort last night. that's the kind of effort that sees jobs lost.

Who could possibly lose their job? BC's year is next year--management already gave him the OK for tanking this year. Casey is brand new and saddled with horse crap players. The horse crap is almost all signed for one year. Their jobs were lost before they even started.

Young guys get a pass for now although they could be thrown in a trade.

Guys who are backups forced to play first string get a pass.

Jose and Barbosa will be traded.

The team was built to lose. Deliberately. Internally I bet they are stunned Bargnani has been playing so well and carried them to wins they didn't want in the first place.

What you see now is I'm sure what they hoped for during this year. Minus the sucky play by DD and Davis. That they were surely not expecting.

Jobs are on the line next year --this year is all about the TANK.

[octothorp]

The one small positive to build on is that Ed Davis has put together solid back-to-back games for the first time this year. He was my biggest early disappointment so I'm glad to see him turning it around during Bargs' new injury.
My biggest concern right now is that their trade chips are doing nothing to up their value. Barbosa's trade value won't drop much as there'll always be a market for proven bench scorer expiring contracts, come trade deadline, but Calderon is doing nothing to improve his chances of moving to a better team. They'll be lucky if they can move him for a trade exception at this point... although a contender losing their PG to injury (very possible this year) could change the market in a hurry.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

The one small positive to build on is that Ed Davis has put together solid back-to-back games for the first time this year. He was my biggest early disappointment so I'm glad to see him turning it around during Bargs' new injury.
My biggest concern right now is that their trade chips are doing nothing to up their value. Barbosa's trade value won't drop much as there'll always be a market for proven bench scorer expiring contracts, come trade deadline, but Calderon is doing nothing to improve his chances of moving to a better team. They'll be lucky if they can move him for a trade exception at this point... although a contender losing their PG to injury (very possible this year) could change the market in a hurry.

This is why, IMO, they have saved their amnesty move. Like you say Barbosa is a needed commodity for many teams. If Jose can't be moved then next year they just get rid of him.

[killer_carlson]

players on 1 year contracts are on a year long job interview, whether with the Raptors or someone else in the league.

No one wants players who quit, especially not a playoff team looking to get over the hump.

That's how this costs people jobs. Their prospects for next year (with any team )are decreased with perforamances like this.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

players on 1 year contracts are on a year long job interview, whether with the Raptors or someone else in the league.

No one wants players who quit, especially not a playoff team looking to get over the hump.

That's how this costs people jobs. Their prospects for next year (with any team )are decreased with perforamances like this.

Carter and Magloire are doing one last year. Butler is a scrub lucky to be in the NBA. Forbes got a two year deal because he is a decent play a few minutes a night type. Gray is a big body. None of these guys are more than what they appear to be which is part of the tank job.

I don't see anybody's job in any more hazard than it was at the start of the season when everybody knew they would suck. It is a brutal year to watch them(I woudn't recommend it) but it just has to be played out and accepted for the prize at the end.

[moon]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Who could possibly lose their job?

You are right that nobody is likely to lose their jobs but BC is the guy who should lose his job and should have been gone long ago.

I love how he gets a pass this year to say it is a write off year when he is the guy who built the team so poorly that they suck now with little to no quality young guys on the team.

It takes a real bad GM to build the crap team that the Raptors have and a really great salesman to convince the owners that he should be re-signed after doing nothing good as GM.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by moon

You are right that nobody is likely to lose their jobs but BC is the guy who should lose his job and should have been gone long ago.

I love how he gets a pass this year to say it is a write off year when he is the guy who built the team so poorly that they suck now with little to no quality young guys on the team.

It takes a real bad GM to build the crap team that the Raptors have and a really great salesman to convince the owners that he should be re-signed after doing nothing good as GM.

He is on his last legs. Next year they have this year's pick and JV arriving but you can't expect a lot from them first year on a crappy team. DD and Davis and Bayless are all looking ho hum. Maybe Bargnani can keep up his play if he can stay healthy.

So that means with all the cash BC will have he needs to pick up at the very least a very good PG and replace all the depth with actual players. They will have to be dramatically better next year or he is toast.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by moon

You are right that nobody is likely to lose their jobs but BC is the guy who should lose his job and should have been gone long ago.

I love how he gets a pass this year to say it is a write off year when he is the guy who built the team so poorly that they suck now with little to no quality young guys on the team.

It takes a real bad GM to build the crap team that the Raptors have and a really great salesman to convince the owners that he should be re-signed after doing nothing good as GM.

I don't mind giving BC one last chance at doing it right. For one thing, is there really any better options out there for GMs? We could always promote someone from within, or try someone without GM experience, but there isn't exactly a great list of candidates to pick from.

Secondly, and more importantly for me, I don't mind giving BC one last shot at it because he appears to be fully committed to a rebuild, which is something he hasn't tried before. Before this he has always been impatient and tried to build a playoff team through trades and free agency. He has always been a GM that seems to be able to pull off big trades or attract decent FAs, so wouldn't mind waiting a season or two to give him a chance to make some moves once he has a couple decent, young core players here.

[moon]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

I don't mind giving BC one last chance at doing it right. For one thing, is there really any better options out there for GMs? We could always promote someone from within, or try someone without GM experience, but there isn't exactly a great list of candidates to pick from.

Is there anybody worse?

Colangelo for some reason got an award in 2007 and seems to be living off of that and Steve Nash ever since. He did a terrible job with a roster that should have won a title in Phoenix and now has done a good job of running the current team into the ground since he has arrived.

I guess the stupidity of NBA guys could be so bad that a colossal failure like Colangelo could be the best option out there but I have to think there is someone who could do better than multiple bottom 5 finishes.

Secondly, and more importantly for me, I don't mind giving BC one last shot at it because he appears to be fully committed to a rebuild, which is something he hasn't tried before. Before this he has always been impatient and tried to build a playoff team through trades and free agency. He has always been a GM that seems to be able to pull off big trades or attract decent FAs, so wouldn't mind waiting a season or two to give him a chance to make some moves once he has a couple decent, young core players here.

Did have any other choice?

Based on his drafting record I don't have a ton of faith in him rebuilding anything.

[octothorp]

Wilson Chandler was in Toronto today, meeting with the Raptors.

http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...nt-wooing.html

He apparently met with Denver already, and they have the rights to match any offer for him. So that leaves Toronto with two options: swing a sign-and-trade, or clear a bit of cap space and make an offer that's high enough to discourage the Nuggets from matching. Denver's pretty comfortable with Gallinari as starting SF right now, while Chandler would definitely be a starter and probably the #2 scoring option on the Raptors, and his defensive skills would also be highly valued under Casey.

From Denver's perspective, they could position themselves for a playoff run this year, but it's hard to see exactly what they need. The team has a lot of chemistry right now. Chandler's skillset (particularly defense) would actually be pretty nice for them off the bench, but not at the pricetag that it would come at. On the other hand, James Johnson might be a better, cheaper fit for them, and that's where the sign-and-trade potential comes in. GM Masai Ujiri was also a big fan of Solomon Alibi... that might be a nice sweetener to throw in, as well.

From Chandler's perspective, he could just sign with Denver until the end of the year, become a UFA, and then ply his services on the UFA market. However, Denver must be reluctant to do that, since they'd lose him for nothing. Part of me suspects that Chandler's appearance in Toronto is just a chip in his bargaining position with the Nuggets.

Edit: apparently the new CBA prevents sign-and-trades from happening mid-season, so a straightup S&T won't work. However, there are still possibilities where the two teams come up with a trade that benefits Denver and saves Toronto cap space, allowing them to sign Chandler. Personally though, I'm still leaning toward his appearance in Toronto as posturing.

[bluejays]

^ Interesting insight Octothorp. I think really, especially in basketball, it comes down to money. Which team is going to pay the guy more and give him a chance to put up huge numbers. That answer would likely be the Raptors. Personally, if I'm Colangelo, I'll try to get Chandler signed to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal for $6M per at most, then look to deal away a lot of the assets who a) are FA's at years end who can get picks back, b) have a possibility of helping the Raps win this year when they clearly need to rebuild for next year (which includes the absolute need for a top 5 pick this year).

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by fleury

^ Interesting insight Octothorp. I think really, especially in basketball, it comes down to money. Which team is going to pay the guy more and give him a chance to put up huge numbers. That answer would likely be the Raptors. Personally, if I'm Colangelo, I'll try to get Chandler signed to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal for $6M per at most, then look to deal away a lot of the assets who a) are FA's at years end who can get picks back, b) have a possibility of helping the Raps win this year when they clearly need to rebuild for next year (which includes the absolute need for a top 5 pick this year).

I don't see the need to add this player. The upcoming draft is chock full of guys who can play at the 3. I'd be saving that 6+ million for a PG.

[octothorp]

I'm just looking back over some stats, and February was actually a great month for the Raptors. They got a lot of losses which will help their draft standing, but the guys who the Raptors are actually hoping for as part of their future all showed solid improvement:

Demar DeRozan averaged 18.5 pts, 3.1 rebounds, and 3.5 assists. He shot 46%, and got to the line better than 6 times a game. All of this came with him getting more attention from defenses than he's used to. I'd like to see him increase his assists and shoot a bit better percentage, but overall these are solid numbers.

Ed Davis had a better February as well, averaging 7.2 points and 6.2 rebounds in 25 minutes. Rebounding still isn't where it needs to be, but he's shooting a solid 59%, which is what you'd hope for an around-the-basket guy - it would put him in the top 10 PFs in the league if he were able to sustain it.

James Johnson averaged 10.1 pts, 4.6 rbs, 2 assists. His blocks were down slightly to 1.2, but he also had 1.3 steals. His shot selection has been much better lately, and his court time has gone up as well.

Worth updating Valanciunas as well. In his last 4 games in Eurocup, he's averaging 13.5 pts, 9rbs, 2.5 blocks. In his last 4 LKL games, he's averaging 16.75 pts, 8 rbs, and 1.75 blocks. His worst shooting performance in these eight games is 5/8. In both leagues, he's averaging about 25 minutes. His fouls haven't gone up from previous seasons, despite the increased minutes. Even if the competition isn't NBA-level, those are still crazy stats for a 19 year old... if he can come close to those numbers in the NBA in a few years, he's easily a top 10 center.
edit: I was trying to find a comparison - his stats are miles ahead of Bargnani's at a similar age, but the two have such different games that it's not really comparable. But his stats are quite similar to Beidrins at the same age at a similar level. And while Beidrins' career has been ruined by injuries, as a 22-year-old in the NBA, he was averaging 12 pts, 11rbs, and had the best shooting percentage in the league. I'd be pretty happy if JV follows a similar trajectory, minus the injuries.

[secol]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I'm just looking back over some stats, and February was actually a great month for the Raptors. They got a lot of losses which will help their draft standing, but the guys who the Raptors are actually hoping for as part of their future all showed solid improvement:

Demar DeRozan averaged 18.5 pts, 3.1 rebounds, and 3.5 assists. He shot 46%, and got to the line better than 6 times a game. All of this came with him getting more attention from defenses than he's used to. I'd like to see him increase his assists and shoot a bit better percentage, but overall these are solid numbers.

Ed Davis had a better February as well, averaging 7.2 points and 6.2 rebounds in 25 minutes. Rebounding still isn't where it needs to be, but he's shooting a solid 59%, which is what you'd hope for an around-the-basket guy - it would put him in the top 10 PFs in the league if he were able to sustain it.

James Johnson averaged 10.1 pts, 4.6 rbs, 2 assists. His blocks were down slightly to 1.2, but he also had 1.3 steals. His shot selection has been much better lately, and his court time has gone up as well.

Worth updating Valanciunas as well. In his last 4 games in Eurocup, he's averaging 13.5 pts, 9rbs, 2.5 blocks. In his last 4 LKL games, he's averaging 16.75 pts, 8 rbs, and 1.75 blocks. His worst shooting performance in these eight games is 5/8. In both leagues, he's averaging about 25 minutes. His fouls haven't gone up from previous seasons, despite the increased minutes. Even if the competition isn't NBA-level, those are still crazy stats for a 19 year old... if he can come close to those numbers in the NBA in a few years, he's easily a top 10 center.
edit: I was trying to find a comparison - his stats are miles ahead of Bargnani's at a similar age, but the two have such different games that it's not really comparable. But his stats are quite similar to Beidrins at the same age at a similar level. And while Beidrins' career has been ruined by injuries, as a 22-year-old in the NBA, he was averaging 12 pts, 11rbs, and had the best shooting percentage in the league. I'd be pretty happy if JV follows a similar trajectory, minus the injuries.

don't forget biedrins can't hit FTs, but JV can

[bluejays]

Did anyone catch tonight's Dunk Competition? How can the NBA change it up to make it more appealing? The only thing I can think of is Horse using only dunks, because as it stands, for the past little while it's gone from bad to worse, with this years seeming to be the worst ever IMO. Every dunk that can possibly be done has been done (though a between the legs over a midget has yet to be done), and it simply needs to be changed or go entirely.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by fleury

Did anyone catch tonight's Dunk Competition? How can the NBA change it up to make it more appealing? The only thing I can think of is Horse using only dunks, because as it stands, for the past little while it's gone from bad to worse, with this years seeming to be the worst ever IMO. Every dunk that can possibly be done has been done (though a between the legs over a midget has yet to be done), and it simply needs to be changed or go entirely.

I didn't even bother watching this year, because I was so disgusted with last years. They did the right thing to get rid of rounds, but having it 100% fan-voting was an awful idea. Just like in the playoffs, the NBA cares more about satisfying as many fans as possible than in determining an honest winner.

Horse would be both interesting and problematic with dunks, because with the best, arobatic dunks, these guys need to practice for hours. So if you increase the improvisational aspect, you decrease the quality of the dunks. Although that might not be such a bad thing: seeing a guy take five attempts to make a dunk that he's been practicing for weeks is just painful.

[killer_carlson]

What is more painful is having to listen to announcers wail and holler after the 5th attempt like it was the greatest dunk they have ever seen.