Smoking Rate lowest its ever been

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I have never heard of someone killing a Macs employee because they couldn't afford smokes.

I'm not saying nicotine is more than harmful heroin, I was curious and googled.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=robber...ient=firefox-a

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I'm not saying nicotine is more than harmful heroin, I was curious and googled.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=robber...ient=firefox-a

Well sure, but we could find evidence for chocolate bars if we tried.

Point is no one has ever blown another dude in an alley for a smoke.

And none of that is related to why smokers smoke in doorwys.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Yeah but what on earth does that have to do with smokers outside of a doorway?

And either way it is true. You can buy cigarettes legally, you can't buy heroin legally. This debate isn't centered around the effects of illegalization of cigarettes. At least that's not what I'm talking about, nor are the posts I'm responding to.

I'm responding to people using "it causes cancer" and "they're addicts, worse than heroin!!" to describe why people smoke in doorways. That's misleading and basically lying.

The real reason is that people are dicks. The same people who litter their McD's, let their dog #### on your lawn and cut you off in traffic are the problem. It's not about smoking, it is about the dickhead people doing it.

If you wanted to argue that a higher percentage of inconsiderate dicks smoke, I'd love to hear it but I don't know how you'd ever prove it.

well this is your quote Cecil....

Comments like "well when you're dealing with that kind of addict" make no sense. This is the same stuff I addressed earlier. Yes, nicotine is addicting. No it is not "just like crack" and one of "those" types of addictions. Study or no study that is bull####. Smoking has never ruined someone's life the way coke/heroin have.Yes they may die, but smokers know that. They may even rationalize it with crap like "well, we all die" but that isn't the point.

I hate to tell you but Ill bet that there are millions of people out there who would LOVE to have their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, partners back because they have died from a smoking related illness. Ill even bet that its ruined more lives than coke or heroin have. Heroin and other hard drug addicts are FULLY aware they are killing themselves as well, that comment is just silly.
The fact you dont buy into "studies" is really your issue.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well this is your quote Cecil....

Comments like "well when you're dealing with that kind of addict" make no sense. This is the same stuff I addressed earlier. Yes, nicotine is addicting. No it is not "just like crack" and one of "those" types of addictions. Study or no study that is bull####. Smoking has never ruined someone's life the way coke/heroin have.Yes they may die, but smokers know that. They may even rationalize it with crap like "well, we all die" but that isn't the point.

I hate to tell you but Ill bet that there are millions of people out there who would LOVE to have their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, partners back because they have died from a smoking related illness. Ill even bet that its ruined more lives than coke or heroin have. Heroin and other hard drug addicts are FULLY aware they are killing themselves as well, that comment is just silly.
The fact you dont buy into "studies" is really your issue.

I guess you missed the part right after where I mentioned dying.

The studies I'm referring to are with regards to the addictive power. I've smoked. It is not as addicting as heroin or coke. It just isn't. Try one line of blow and you'll almost instantly want another. Have one cigarette and you probably won't even give it a second thought. At no point did I argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill you. But it doesn't typically lead to selling your house, becoming a prostitute, selling your child into slavery, violent crime, long jail terms, losing your job. Have you seen those meth addict memes? Hard drugs and nicotine are simply not comparable.

How does my evidence, albeit anecdotal, that the studies about the addictive power are BS have ANYTHING to do with inconsiderate smokers or the amount of crime, violence, prostitution etc that are caused by illegal drugs?

Meth, coke and heroin are about 1000x worse than smoking. For about the fourth time, it is misleading and outright dishonest to compare them. A meth/heroin addict has about as much in common with a caffeine addict (my point that you missed the first time).

Smokers standing in doorways and a junkie who's addicted to heroin are not even comparable. It is laughable.


I joined this discussion because a) second hand smoke in extrememly small quantities doesn't cause cancer, so cancer has no place in a discussion about inconsiderate people in doorways (it was brought up a few times) b) your right to not be inconvenienced by smoke because you don't like the smell is equal to any similar arguments about smoke, cologne, BO etc. c) people who smoke in doorways are dicks, that's nothing to do with addictiveness of nicotine.

Several posters have said they shouldn't have to smell it. Ok. First world problems. I don't like stepping in dog#### or dealing with stinky ass people on the train but it happens.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I guess you missed the part right after where I mentioned dying.

The studies I'm referring to are with regards to the addictive power. I've smoked. It is not as addicting as heroin or coke. It just isn't. Try one line of blow and you'll almost instantly want another. Have one cigarette and you probably won't even give it a second thought. At no point did I argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill you. But it doesn't typically lead to selling your house, becoming a prostitute, selling your child into slavery, violent crime, long jail terms, losing your job. Have you seen those meth addict memes? Hard drugs and nicotine are simply not comparable.

How does my evidence, albeit anecdotal, that the studies about the addictive power are BS have ANYTHING to do with inconsiderate smokers or the amount of crime, violence, prostitution etc that are caused by illegal drugs?

Meth, coke and heroin are about 1000x worse than smoking. For about the fourth time, it is misleading and outright dishonest to compare them. A meth/heroin addict has about as much in common with a caffeine addict (my point that you missed the first time).

Smokers standing in doorways and a junkie who's addicted to heroin are not even comparable. It is laughable.

and my point was...heroin, coke et al are illegal, therefore making the acquisition of said drugs illegal and much more difficult. Make cigs illegal today and Im sure you will find many people going to extraordinary measures to get their poison stick. Im not sure how you, Cecil, can suggest that the addictive power of cigs is any different than coke or junk when we still have millions who cant shake that little weed stick, and those that have likely took years to do so. Ive never been a junkie or a coke freak so I cant compare, but I have quit smoking, it only took me 20 years. My issue was I kept justifying in my mind that cigarette studies are simply not proof positive. I was an idiot for thinking that.
The fact we are talking about "inconsiderate" smokers is simply that they themselves buy into the same theories you do, and I used to.
The fact we still have smokers is amazing considering all of the EVIDENCE it will kill you and those you love from your second hand smoke, after all it isnt nearly as addicting as coke or junk.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cheese

and my point was...heroin, coke et al are illegal, therefore making the acquisition of said drugs illegal and much more difficult. Make cigs illegal today and Im sure you will find many people going to extraordinary measures to get their poison stick. Im not sure how you, Cecil, can suggest that the addictive power of cigs is any different than coke or junk when we still have millions who cant shake that little weed stick, and those that have likely took years to do so. Ive never been a junkie or a coke freak so I cant compare, but I have quit smoking, it only took me 20 years. My issue was I kept justifying in my mind that cigarette studies are simply not proof positive. I was an idiot for thinking that.
The fact we are talking about "inconsiderate" smokers is simply that they themselves buy into the same theories you do, and I used to.
The fact we still have smokers is amazing considering all of the EVIDENCE it will kill you and those you love from your second hand smoke, after all it isnt nearly as addicting as coke or junk.

Please explain how me not thinking cigarettes are as addictive as coke has anything at all to do with people smoking in doorways?

Does being addicted to smoking make people inconsiderate?

What theory am I buying into?

I know cigarettes are addictive and I know they cause cancer. But how can you keep linking that to the place people choose to smoke?

Is smoking 3 feet from the door somehow help them get a better nicotine rush vs smoking 15 feet from the door (the legal minimum)? If not there is no link. It is just that they are lazy and inconsiderate. How addicted they are has nothing to do with where they stand.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Please explain how me not thinking cigarettes are as addictive as coke has anything at all to do with people smoking in doorways?

Does being addicted to smoking make people inconsiderate?

What theory am I buying into?

well in short Yes.
IF I am addicted to something I will eventually need a fix. As a heroin addict or a Coke addict I will do what I need to do to get that fix. Cigarette smokers used to be able to light up anywhere forcing their addiction onto those that werent, fortunately that has now been constrained as efforts are made to stigmatize these addicts and help them make the correct decision to quit.
The point that those of us who do not smoke, whether prior smokers or not, is that a smokers habit is repulsive, regardless of whether it is legal or not. YOUR habit stinks, and in turn if we are to pass through your cloud, we stink as well.
Addictions make people of all races, colors and sexes inconsiderate, it doesn't matter what the addiction is.

[Cheese]

Comparing Tobacco Cigarette Dependence With Other Drug Dependencies


About 1000 persons seeking treatment for alcohol or drug dependence were asked, relative to cigarettes, about the difficulty of quitting the use of the substance for which they were seeking treatment, the strength of their strongest urges to use, and the pleasure they derived from use. Fifty-seven percent said that cigarettes would be harder to quit using than their problem substance.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well in short Yes.
IF I am addicted to something I will eventually need a fix. As a heroin addict or a Coke addict I will do what I need to do to get that fix. Cigarette smokers used to be able to light up anywhere forcing their addiction onto those that werent, fortunately that has now been constrained as efforts are made to stigmatize these addicts and help them make the correct decision to quit.
The point that those of us who do not smoke, whether prior smokers or not, is that a smokers habit is repulsive, regardless of whether it is legal or not. YOUR habit stinks, and in turn if we are to pass through your cloud, we stink as well.
Addictions make people of all races, colors and sexes inconsiderate, it doesn't matter what the addiction is.

meh that maybe true, but most people regardless of their addiction or no addiction tend to be in their small little world and are pretty inconsiderate to the people around them.

[Cheese]

oh and one other comparison.....if we had "Players" cocaine and light cocaine and "Export A" high grade crack, Im quite sure the advertising from the companies would be quite similar to that of today's cigarette manufacturers. The only difference we would have is that the non smackers or sniffers would be wading through snorters and injectors at doorways to office towers. Would that be less objectionable?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Comparing Tobacco Cigarette Dependence With Other Drug Dependencies


About 1000 persons seeking treatment for alcohol or drug dependence were asked, relative to cigarettes, about the difficulty of quitting the use of the substance for which they were seeking treatment, the strength of their strongest urges to use, and the pleasure they derived from use. Fifty-seven percent said that cigarettes would be harder to quit using than their problem substance.

A lot of people ruin their lives thanks to alcohol/herion/coke addictions. I have yet to see a smoker ruin his life (minus health effects) thanks to his tobacco addiction. Most of the guys on the street are addicted to crack cocaine in Calgary - its one of the reasons they can't function in society - they are on a constant search for their next high and that's all they can do. The detox coming off those drugs - side effects i have heard are much more severe. I have known many people to straight up go cold turkey off smokes with minor side effects - hey some people its a little harder to do no doubt, but that's why at least in my mind i have this perception based on my experience that the harder drugs are a lot harder to bounce than cigs.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

So you're comparing heroin, a drug that people literally kill, prostitute, steal etc for, to nicotine, a drug that people...purchase legally at their local 7/11.

How are those remotely similar?

Actually I wasn't - you were.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

fyp. Replace with any of 500 other addictions.

....

I was just saying that your comparisons to other addictions had no validity here as they were not the addiction in question. If we were to bring in other addictions you still had no point as smoking has been proven to be an extremely difficult addiction to beat. Most who try to beat it revert back to smoking. You yourself cheat and rationalize as evidenced in the quitting thread.

Comments like "well when you're dealing with that kind of addict" make no sense. This is the same stuff I addressed earlier. Yes, nicotine is addicting. No it is not "just like crack" and one of "those" types of addictions. Study or no study that is bull####.

I don't see how completely disregarding medical studies is either rational or reasonable.

Smoking has never ruined someone's life the way coke/heroin have.

This is probably subject to legality, availability, and price and nothing to do with the addictive nature.

Yes they may die, but smokers know that. They may even rationalize it with crap like "well, we all die" but that isn't the point.

Rationalizing an irrational action...no?

The point is that there is no "illness of addiction". That has absolutely nothing to do with smoking in a doorway. I'm blown away anyone could even make that link.

I didn't. I was simply addressing your attempt at trivializing the addiction by bringing in other irrelevant addictions.

This is about people being inconsiderate dicks. Always has.

Which a fairly large percentage of smokers are.

Throwing out the other comments about cancer and addiction is just a way to heavily slant your argument.

Addicts have a tendency to rationalize their actions. The diseases surrounding smoking are very well known yet people continue to smoke - why is that?

There is no business talking about smokers like that. It is laughable. I have personally seen people empty their bank account and sell their truck for an 8ball. People have done many illegal things to get hard drugs, including murder, prostitution, violence etc.

I think you were the one that brought up the other addictions as a means of deflection. If you want to extend this, many smokers would empty the bank accounts of their family if there were not provided with heath care benefits.

I have never heard of someone killing a Macs employee because they couldn't afford smokes.

Again - price and accessibility.


For context from the other thread:

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I get the odd craving but I now consider myself a full on non-smoker.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I still tend to cheat a little on weekends when I'm drinking but other than that I'm still going strong as well.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Even though I have the odd smoke when I drink or on the weekend I don't get cravings anymore really. Watching people smoke on TV isn't a big deal.

Something about alcohol in my system though that I just can't shake. I'm fine Sun-Thurs but as soon as I have a few drinks I'd do anything for a smoke.

Perhaps things have changed since then.

My feeling on the addictive nature is that once a smoker always a smoker - the key is to increase the amount of time between smokes (6.5 years here).

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

A lot of people ruin their lives thanks to alcohol/herion/coke addictions. I have yet to see a smoker ruin his life (minus health effects) thanks to his tobacco addiction. Most of the guys on the street are addicted to crack cocaine in Calgary - its one of the reasons they can't function in society - they are on a constant search for their next high and that's all they can do. The detox coming off those drugs - side effects i have heard are much more severe. I have known many people to straight up go cold turkey off smokes with minor side effects - hey some people its a little harder to do no doubt, but that's why at least in my mind i have this perception based on my experience that the harder drugs are a lot harder to bounce than cigs.

Yes they do ruin their lives. How do they do it? By being forced to pay extraordinary prices for their fix. If these products were legal like Cigs then prices would be stabilized and freely accessible removing the fear and issue many hard drug users have. Same with cigs....make them illegal and you have the same problem as any other addiction.
Quite frankly Im not sure why you suggested "minus health effects" when comparing hard drugs to cigs, all addictions are the same, they waste a part of the body away until disease, malnutrition or some other comparable malady stops them dead.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The studies I'm referring to are with regards to the addictive power. I've smoked. It is not as addicting as heroin or coke. It just isn't. Try one line of blow and you'll almost instantly want another.

Do you have first hand knowledge of this? I've known people who have done blow and as far as I know, haven't done it again.

Have one cigarette and you probably won't even give it a second thought. At no point did I argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill you. But it doesn't typically lead to selling your house, becoming a prostitute, selling your child into slavery, violent crime, long jail terms, losing your job. Have you seen those meth addict memes? Hard drugs and nicotine are simply not comparable.

The effects on your body != how addictive it is. Drug addicts also can't just stand out by the door to indulge in their addiction with others. Nor can they just buy it at the local corner store.

Meth, coke and heroin are about 1000x worse than smoking.

I disagree. At least cokeheads and heroin users don't bother others with secondhand smoke.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cheese

oh and one other comparison.....if we had "Players" cocaine and light cocaine and "Export A" high grade crack, Im quite sure the advertising from the companies would be quite similar to that of today's cigarette manufacturers. The only difference we would have is that the non smackers or sniffers would be wading through snorters and injectors at doorways to office towers. Would that be less objectionable?

"light cocaine" could be called "Calgary cocaine".

[peter12]

By the way, we should legalize heroin, and all drugs.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by peter12

By the way, we should legalize heroin, and all drugs.

would you be first in line to try?

[zamler]

If you think cigarettes are not as addicting as some hard core illegal drugs, try this test. Watch a smoker that has run out of smokes, their life is put on hold until they get their fix. And the longer they go without, the more urgent and dedicated they will become. I've seen this happen many times, the pattern is shockingly similar to several illegal drugs. I've seen friends go from perfectly normal to basically non-functional until they were able to light up again.

Don't kid yourself, nicotine addiction is extremely powerful.

[Circa89]

Originally Posted by Cheese

oh and one other comparison.....if we had "Players" cocaine and light cocaine and "Export A" high grade crack, Im quite sure the advertising from the companies would be quite similar to that of today's cigarette manufacturers. The only difference we would have is that the non smackers or sniffers would be wading through snorters and injectors at doorways to office towers. Would that be less objectionable?

Get a grip, seriously. Its people having a smoke. Some semblance of acceptance is not only encourage but expected of fellow human beings and their different out look and practices of day to day life here in Canada.

It is totally awesome if some alternative lifestyle should have a parade in Downtown Calgary (not that there is anything wrong with that) but god forbid a person may enjoy a smoke. It "ain't in vogue" anymore and therefore people can trash talk smokers and feel superior and their healthy lifestyle.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Circa89

Get a grip, seriously. Its people having a smoke. Some semblance of acceptance is not only encourage but expected of fellow human beings and their different out look and practices of day to day life here in Canada.

It is totally awesome if some alternative lifestyle should have a parade in Downtown Calgary (not that there is anything wrong with that) but god forbid a person may enjoy a smoke. It "ain't in vogue" anymore and therefore people can trash talk smokers and feel superior and their healthy lifestyle.

Smoking is not a socialy acceptable habit in today's society and it's only going to get worse. Reality is what it is - deal with it.