Ironically, I was going to use the same argument for my position. I look at the universe in all its infinite complexity, intricateness and variety and wonder how some believe it all came about by chance.
You believe it did, fine. But I don't understand the bitter attitude toward those that don't. It's like a pseudo-intellectual bullying club.
That's an argument for deism, not Christianity.
EDIT: And besides that the universe is only complex from your perspective. From a non-human perspective, it just is.
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As you can see, I'm completely ridiculous.
Last edited by Weiser Wonder; 05-18-2011 at 11:55 PM.
Although it helps having translations containing Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. It really clears up some some verses.
Trolling nothing, I am always amazed that rational human beings who can walk into a bible shop and see the multitude of bibles can then say the words printed inside are the literal word of god.
Even if you have utter faith in God it is obvious the bible is an interpretation of the word of God.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
Exp:
Who cares if god is real or not - god is boring. I don't want to be some being's dog where I live for its table scraps and occasional pats on the head. Adoration is for children.
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Then god is just another being, not some almighty being that I should be bowing before. While this hypothetical entity may be "above" me in the evolutionary scale it is in no way a universal truth or absolute ruler. If anything this view of god is that it's just an anomaly, a random creation, pure dumb luck that ended up creating me as I am. Now why does this random idea get to govern my life? Why would this arbitrary act of the universe have any special recourse on my eternal soul?
Interesting you used the phrase "pure dumb luck"... but I'll stick with your train of thought:
What if this anomaly, this random creation, could flick a switch and end your life? Or provide you with an unlimited energy source for your life? I guess I'm wondering in this hypothetical situation, at what point would you actually feel like you would "worship" this being that created you?
If you say 'never', it's not the concept of a "creator" but the accountability or the pride associated with having to submit to some higher power that bothers you.
Interesting you used the phrase "pure dumb luck"... but I'll stick with your train of thought:
What if this anomaly, this random creation, could flick a switch and end your life? Or provide you with an unlimited energy source for your life? I guess I'm wondering in this hypothetical situation, at what point would you actually feel like you would "worship" this being that created you?
If you say 'never', it's not the concept of a "creator" but the accountability or the pride associated with having to submit to some higher power that bothers you.
I'd tell it to go #### itself, Hitchens style. What kind of being would create beings to worship itself?
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As you can see, I'm completely ridiculous.
but as a scientist, the onus isn't on him to prove that something doesn't exist, it's up to Cameron and other Christians to gather evidence and put forth a case that God and heaven do exist (and sorry, but the bible doesn't count). so far there has never been any observable facts that would suggest heaven is a real place, so in the scientific realm it is perfectly acceptable to say that it doesn't exist
I don't look at heaven as being a place, to me it's a state of mind to be enjoyed now, and this state can't be gotten too by the mind or thought. I look at myself as being body, mind and spirit and just as the mind controls the body, the spirit should control the mind. Read the Gita to find out about this war between the mind and spirit. Most of you don't recognize or know the spirit or cop out and let some other authority such as the Bible stand in for it whereas these books should only be used as slightly off and dated road maps.
I just want to say that there is more to this life than just being born, sleep walking through this life without true enjoyment and then dying.
I'd tell it to go #### itself, Hitchens style. What kind of being would create beings to worship itself?
You bring up something I have always been curious about. Wouldn't a god that creates beings to worship him/herself therefore have faults of their own ??? He/she obviously has self-esteem issues.
Would this explain why when he/she created man in his/her image they are imperfect ? Is that why catholic priests commit pedophelia, evangelical leaders commit fraud and Imans and clerics destroy lives ?
If god is then imperfect, should you not then question his word?
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I do, possibly likely because it would be devastating to my argument to concede otherwise. But I will share my logic;
An argument that boils down to "you must submit to my authority or you will burn in hell for eternity" - even if true - lends itself perfectly as a control mechanism for the most dangerous members of society.
There are so many relevant quotes from Thomas Jefferson I'm struggling to pick only one.
I completely agree with you. Religion, specifically the Bible, has been used as a control mechanism. There's no question about it. But the Bible has been twisted and distorted at whim by those in a position to wield it over their followers.
What if you knew the Bible didn't teach eternal damnation? That God doesn't take children "so that he could have another angel in heaven?" That the Rapture as it's portrayed isn't a Biblical teaching. That there's a reason He seems to be completely uninvolved in today's affairs?
But all those things are a non-issue if you don't even believe in God in the first place.
You bring up something I have always been curious about. Wouldn't a god that creates beings to worship him/herself therefore have faults of their own ??? He/she obviously has self-esteem issues.
Would this explain why when he/she created man in his/her image they are imperfect ? Is that why catholic priests commit pedophelia, evangelical leaders commit fraud and Imans and clerics destroy lives ?
If god is then imperfect, should you not then question his word?
You jumped from one supposition to the next and formed a conclusion based on false premises. I hope that's not how you conduct your science experiments
Interesting you used the phrase "pure dumb luck"... but I'll stick with your train of thought:
What if this anomaly, this random creation, could flick a switch and end your life? Or provide you with an unlimited energy source for your life? I guess I'm wondering in this hypothetical situation, at what point would you actually feel like you would "worship" this being that created you?
If you say 'never', it's not the concept of a "creator" but the accountability or the pride associated with having to submit to some higher power that bothers you.
That is quite the hypothetical situation, yet still does nothing to further the debate in this thread. I could have changed a few words in it and fit it into the Canadian Election thread in response to small "l" Liberals bemoaning Harper getting a majority government.
You seem like a fairly logical person, and I'm happy that you have beliefs that you can rely on, that's a great thing.
I'm curious what your opinion is on my belief that the Church, and the bible more specifically is a man-made creation that was designed to help control the masses through a mixture of fear and promise. At the end of the day religion never has to deliver on any of its promises, that is the best thing about it, no one will ever know if there really is something after death, because (you guessed it) you are dead and can't bring your receipt back for a full refund.
But it is probably a better idea to blindly follow what a man with a goofy hat says, and make sure you pass along a nice tithe so that he has a warm place to sleep at night. If you don't, the bible says you don't get to come to God's birthday party, you have to sit outside and have someone burn you and poke you with pitchforks instead.
Sorry for the sarcasm, religious debates really bring out the worst in me.
But in all honesty, tell me what you think about my opinion on the bible, I am interested in your side of things.
I completely agree with you. Religion, specifically the Bible, has been used as a control mechanism. There's no question about it. But the Bible has been twisted and distorted at whim by those in a position to wield it over their followers.
I assert that it hasn't been distorted, it is - and always has been - a control mechanism.
The arguments and rationalizations are refined over time, but the purpose of religion endures:
Obedience of authority.
Interesting...Cameron makes a good point but people just seem to ignore it. Just because Hawkings says in his scientific view Heaven doesn't exist doesn't make it true. Cameron is right in that fact that Hawkings can't prove that Heaven doesn't exist.
That's not how science works. Hawking doesn't have to prove Heaven doesn't exist. In this case it's Cameron who has to provide evidence that Heaven does exist. Cameron's point of "he can't prove it doesn't exist" is ironic, hilarious, and down right ignorant.
First off, Stephen Hawking has been an outspoken atheist for decades.
Dr. Hawking (who is likely the preeminent mind of our time) sets his sights higher, with criticism of religion merely being his warm-up act. He posits that Philosophy is dead; that it can't keep pace with scientific advances.
I've downloaded The Grand Design and am going to have a read.
Last edited by Reggie Dunlop; 05-19-2011 at 12:51 AM.
What I am trying to get at is... What was the point of creating us ?? So a divine being could have the majority of humans ever created eek out a meager existence and suffer through life ? Was the point to see which group of people successfully happened upon the right belief system to reach heaven ??
Have you ever thought "what if the Buddhists/Muslims/Jews etc. Are actually the ones in the right course "??
My issue with the belief in god is that the majority of those that believe in god feel they are superior to those that do not (or at least feel pity for those that do not). Is this not the main cause of human suffering? Groups of people feeling superior to other groups ?
That is quite the hypothetical situation, yet still does nothing to further the debate in this thread. I could have changed a few words in it and fit it into the Canadian Election thread in response to small "l" Liberals bemoaning Harper getting a majority government.
You seem like a fairly logical person, and I'm happy that you have beliefs that you can rely on, that's a great thing.
I'm curious what your opinion is on my belief that the Church, and the bible more specifically is a man-made creation that was designed to help control the masses through a mixture of fear and promise. At the end of the day religion never has to deliver on any of its promises, that is the best thing about it, no one will ever know if there really is something after death, because (you guessed it) you are dead and can't bring your receipt back for a full refund.
But it is probably a better idea to blindly follow what a man with a goofy hat says, and make sure you pass along a nice tithe so that he has a warm place to sleep at night. If you don't, the bible says you don't get to come to God's birthday party, you have to sit outside and have someone burn you and poke you with pitchforks instead.
Sorry for the sarcasm, religious debates really bring out the worst in me.
But in all honesty, tell me what you think about my opinion on the bible, I am interested in your side of things.
I agree with you that man over the centuries has incorrectly used the Bible to to "help control the masses through a mixture of fear and promise." It's exactly why the the Romans mixed their pagan rituals along with Christianity. To placate them. I'm sure everyone here really knows the real origin of Christmas.
But I do believe that God used man to write the Bible as His Word. I could point out to prophecies that were written hundreds of years in advance and then fulfilled, but then all I'll hear is, "it was written after the fact" and such. I could point to when the Bible books were written and then others would say that it wasn't dated properly. I could point out how historians at times denied the existence of certain rulers, cities, or events that transpired, but then archeological evidence validated the Bible. I could point out how the Bible spoke about the earth hanging upon nothing or being a sphere thousands of years before science confirmed it, but it still would be to no avail because some will somehow take issue with that as well.
If people don't want to believe in something, they'll find every reason not to despite glaring proof otherwise.
I realize the same could be thought of me in return.
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So I guess according to you I'm not rational and a critical thinking person. Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
I don't understand why relativists even bother getting involved in debates about anything. Then again Christian relativists are an entirely different breed.
