Is This Racism?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Just because it applies to all immigrants, not just ones that are visible minorities it makes those disadvantages less real? I bet first gen Eastern European immigrants from 40 years ago would disagree.

My point is that this is an immigration issue, not a race one. If a white immigrant from eastern Europe is subject to the same disadvantages as someone who immigrated from India, then those disadvantages aren't race based.

My post was intended to be a counter point to the post I quoted, which said that visible minorities have the same chances in life as the dominant groups in Canada. His point was only even close to valid because he discounted all imigrants, and those who couldn't get a good education/start in life because of factors (like the ones I listed).

But you are confusing class with race. Sure, a white upper class male is most likely going have many advantages over a minority living in the lower class. How is that a race issue though? If a white, upper class male has advantages over a black, upper class female, then that is a case of racial inequality. None of your points address that. If you are going to offer advantages to one group over another, why not just do it from a class perspective? Why should lower class minorities have any advantage over lower class white males?

Just because it is an inequality that you don't feel is related to overt racism, doesn't mean it doesn't affect peoples lives.

Come on now. Don't spin this into a race issue when it isn't one. Poor immigrants that come to this country are all subject to the same disadvantages, regardless of race. Sure, if you want to argue that society is less accepting of some cultures than others, then I will agree with you, but from an institutional perspective, I think you are way off on this one.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by moon

The same could be said for any adult in this society male/female, white/black/yellow/green etc.

The amount of excuses tossed out by people from all areas of society today is pathetic. It seems that if you don't succeed the immediate thing to do is blame someone else.

Exactly! Thanks for pointing that out.

White people blaming 'affirmative action' type programs when they don't get a job is a perfect example of this.

Explaining why people of minority status ( due to color, gender, sexual orientation etc) have a disadvantage isn't assigning blame to anyone or making an excuse for any failures, it is simply explaining why it could be happening in a general sense.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by fotze

I've never applied for a job that asked for race. Isn't it just government jobs where these policies are in effect? If so, I think you can thank your lucky stars you were not chosen for a government job.

Every online application that I have ever applied to in the last 3 years has asked me to specify if I am a minority or not.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Exactly! Thanks for pointing that out.

White people blaming 'affirmative action' type programs when they don't get a job is a perfect example of this.

A even better perfect example of this is people claiming that because they have minority status that they have a disadvantage.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Every online application that I have ever applied to in the last 3 years has asked me to specify if I am a minority or not.

That is for Americans. If you are Canadian, there is usually a disclaimer stating that disclosing that information is optional.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well when you move to a country in which you aren't educated and don't speak the language, you are going to be at a disadvantage...I don't think that's anything we should be expected to solve for you.

I think many immigrants know the deal when they move here. From the ones I've met it seems to me they are setting their kids up for better lives, not necessarily themselves.

Exactly. When my grandparents came to this country, they could barely speak English and their formal education stopped at the third grade, when they had to stop going to school so they could help earn money for their families. Once in Canada, they had to work a bunch of crappy jobs for lousy pay, but they were able to provide for my mother, who went on to become a successful business woman that is now CFO of her company. That's the whole point of moving to the western world. It shouldn't be about having things handed to you because you are uneducated and don't speak the language.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by fotze

What type of jobs?

Accounting/finance jobs.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That is for Americans. If you are Canadian, there is usually a disclaimer stating that disclosing that information is optional.

This is true. It does say that it is optional. Government jobs (at least federal) also say that their consideration of your application may be subject to whether or not you are a minority.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ark2

My point is that this is an immigration issue, not a race one. If a white immigrant from eastern Europe is subject to the same disadvantages as someone who immigrated from India, then those disadvantages aren't race based.

It doesn't matter if they are race based! I am actually saying they are not race based at all but a general property facing all people who have a minority status due to factors that involve race, gender, sexual orientation etc. Doesn't change the fact that they are real disadvantages.

Originally Posted by Ark2

But you are confusing class with race. Sure, a white upper class male is most likely going have many advantages over a minority living in the lower class. How is that a race issue though? If a white, upper class male has advantages over a black, upper class female, then that is a case of racial inequality.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Thank you for stating it so clearly.

Originally Posted by Ark2

None of your points address that. If you are going to offer advantages to one group over another, why not just do it from a class perspective? Why should lower class minorities have any advantage over lower class white males?

If you just take one perspective and ignore the rest, are you really looking at the real disadvantages people face? As you pointed out lower class minorities face different hurdles than upper class white females, or middle class gay couples. If you want to examine actual inequality as it happens in the world, you really do need to consider all the factors. My list certainly was not complete, but it did list factors that had basis in several areas, including class
conditions that likely exist for new immigrants or minorities.

Originally Posted by Ark2

Come on now. Don't spin this into a race issue when it isn't one. Poor immigrants that come to this country are all subject to the same disadvantages, regardless of race. Sure, if you want to argue that society is less accepting of some cultures than others, then I will agree with you, but from an institutional perspective, I think you are way off on this one.

Race is one of many factors that come into play. I am not trying to use racism alone to explain these disadvantages, as you have clearly noticed.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Exactly. When my grandparents came to this country, they could barely speak English and their formal education stopped at the third grade, when they had to stop going to school so they could help earn money for their families. Once in Canada, they had to work a bunch of crappy jobs for lousy pay, but they were able to provide for my mother, who went on to become a successful business woman that is now CFO of her company. That's the whole point of moving to the western world. It shouldn't be about having things handed to you because you are uneducated and don't speak the language.

Are you saying that your grandparents had disadvantages when they came here 50 years ago due to factors relating to their financial status and ability to get an education within the confines of 'normal Canadian society' at the time?

I am glad you understand what I have been talking about and have given an example from your own history that explains my exact point so well. I was worried that what I said was falling on deaf ears.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

That is for Americans. If you are Canadian, there is usually a disclaimer stating that disclosing that information is optional.

It's not compulsory in the US either

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's not compulsory in the US either

I didn't think it was but I wasn't 100% sure. I only ever see it on American owned companies though. I usually just fill it out anyway.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Rathji

It doesn't matter if they are race based! I am actually saying they are not race based at all but a general property facing all people who have a minority status due to factors that involve race, gender, sexual orientation etc. Doesn't change the fact that they are real disadvantages.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Not being condescending, but this makes no sense to me, at all.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Thank you for stating it so clearly.

Great, so then if I were to say that a black, upper class female likely has advantages over a white, lower class male, you would agree? Because that is my point.

If you just take one perspective and ignore the rest, are you really looking at the real disadvantages people face? As you pointed out lower class minorities face different hurdles than upper class white females, or middle class gay couples. If you want to examine actual inequality as it happens in the world, you really do need to consider all the factors. My list certainly was not complete, but it did list factors that had basis in several areas, including class conditions that likely exist for new immigrants or minorities.

My argument is that in this day and age, any inequalities between people are caused by class, not race. I also don't buy that race is what influences your class. I know that this doesn't fit the mold of the self-loathing white man, but oh well.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Are you saying that your grandparents had disadvantages when they came here 50 years ago due to factors relating to their financial status and ability to get an education within the confines of 'normal Canadian society' at the time?

Their financial status, yes. Their ability to get an education? No. I am saying that their lack of education when they came to this country affected their status.

I am glad you understand what I have been talking about and have given an example from your own history that explains my exact point so well. I was worried that what I said was falling on deaf ears.

I'm saying that lower social classes have disadvantages over higher ones. If that is your point, then great, we agree with one another. However, I am also saying that social classes have nothing to do with race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Perhaps I am mistaken, but that seems to be where you and I differ, and that is where the crux of my issue with your position lies.

Obviously the poor do not have the same opportunities as the rich in this country. I'm sure that we can all agree on that. Saying that minorities don't have the same opportunities is something else entirely.

[Tinordi]

You're splitting hairs Ark, trying to pinpoint it down to whatever label we use to define others.

The bottom line is that people have identities, and many of these identities either align with a dominant or majority identity like an educated white heterosexual male or they form a minority identity like a disabled non-english speaking black transexual.

The key point is that these identities are a fundamental role is shaping the access we have to opportunities in our society. That's what Rathji is saying, your own examples of your grandparents prove that.

[SeeBass]

I think in this country your race/religion/sex has much less to do with how you will do in life compared to what kind of person you are and how you were raised.

There are many people that come here with little or no english skills and they wind up sweeping floors for a living but their kids go to college. Why is it that some groups are doing this and some aren't? Are there large groups of whites that hate one skin colour but hate another? Language skills is the disadvantage to immigrants not racism.

I bet the vast majority of us can go back and give examples of what our ancestors occupation was when they first got here but their kids or grandkids took a step up.

I don't follow our education system but I would have to guess that the school that the kid goes to in Falconridge is just as good as the one that another kid goes to in Midnapore. I think the whole "poor people go to bad schools so they are disadvantaged" is probably incorrect.

[Tinordi]

Obviously the poor do not have the same opportunities as the rich in this country. I'm sure that we can all agree on that. Saying that minorities don't have the same opportunities is something else entirely.

But you're unbundling identities here that really overlap. Some people are poor because they belong to another ethnic identity and don't have a network of opportunities that established residents do. Those people also could not have the language skills to get well paying jobs, or they could be discriminated against because of only a perception that they don't have proper language skills. That's the thing, nobody is saying "I don't like South Asians and I'm not going to give them a job." The line is more like, "I don't know much about this South Asian applicant so therefore I'd trust my decision in hiring a white guy more because I'd know more or less what I'd be getting."

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The key point is that these identities are a fundamental role is shaping the access we have to opportunities in our society. That's what Rathji is saying, your own examples of your grandparents prove that.

The example of my grandparents shows that their class or social status in this country had nothing to do with their race. If that is what Rathji is saying, then you are right and I apologize for splitting hairs.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Their financial status, yes. Their ability to get an education? No. I am saying that their lack of education when they came to this country affected their status.



I'm saying that lower social classes have disadvantages over higher ones. If that is your point, then great, we agree with one another. However, I am also saying that social classes have nothing to do with race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Perhaps I am mistaken, but that seems to be where you and I differ, and that is where the crux of my issue with your position lies.

Obviously the poor do not have the same opportunities as the rich in this country. I'm sure that we can all agree on that. Saying that minorities don't have the same opportunities is something else entirely.

I agree and that is where I think Rathji was incorrect as he was using race as the issue and not class.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Ark2

My argument is that in this day and age, any inequalities between people are caused by class, not race. I also don't buy that race is what influences your class. I know that this doesn't fit the mold of the self-loathing white man, but oh well.

If you think that race, class, gender and sexual orientation don't all contribute to how a person is treated in society, then you are just going to have to misunderstand what I am saying.

Race doesn't define class the same way that it doesn't define gender or sexual orientation. You can't deny that factors of one might effect the others in some way.

For example: A black man and a white man get treated differently. A black woman and a white man also get treated differently because there are 2 factors in play, the black lesbian woman and the white heterosexual man, yet again different. Those differences clearly are not based on race alone.

This has nothing to do with "white guilt" or anything of that nature, I am positive many of these disadvantages exist when Canadian people move to China or India, or when Russian people move to France. It is just a fact of life when you are dealing with a minority group in society.