Todd Button....

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Shea Weber was the 14th defenseman taken in his draft. EVERYONE was wrong.

Nashville (who actually picked him), picked 2 other defensemen before him.

The draft isn't perfect. And saying "they missed on this guy' is not how you rate a scout - you have to do it on body of work.

I am - his body of work sucks.

This is one of the worst drafting teams in the NHL, and Tod Burton has been the director of scouting for 23 years.

From 2004-2009, he whiffed on five of six first round picks.

Since Lance Bouma was drafted in the 3rd round in 2008, the only Flames 3rd rounder to even appear in an NHL game is Jon Gillies.


He should’ve been fired a decade ago.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I am - his body of work sucks.

This is one of the worst drafting teams in the NHL, and Tod Burton has been the director of scouting for 23 years.

From 2004-2009, he whiffed on five of six first round picks.

Since Lance Bouma was drafted in the 3rd round in 2008, the only Flames 3rd rounder to even appear in an NHL game is Jon Gillies.


He should’ve been fired a decade ago.

Have any of Button's draft picks gone on to win the Stanley Cup with other teams?

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I am - his body of work sucks.

This is one of the worst drafting teams in the NHL, and Tod Burton has been the director of scouting for 23 years.

From 2004-2009, he whiffed on five of six first round picks.

Since Lance Bouma was drafted in the 3rd round in 2008, the only Flames 3rd rounder to even appear in an NHL game is Jon Gillies.


He should’ve been fired a decade ago.

Hmmm… you’re right!! From 2004-2009 it was Tod who was secretly the smartest man in the room!

Definitely not the guy still being paid by the team NOT to coach.

Weird how his ability to evaluate talent magically improved the following season?!?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I am - his body of work sucks.

This is one of the worst drafting teams in the NHL, and Tod Burton has been the director of scouting for 23 years.

From 2004-2009, he whiffed on five of six first round picks.

Since Lance Bouma was drafted in the 3rd round in 2008, the only Flames 3rd rounder to even appear in an NHL game is Jon Gillies.


He should’ve been fired a decade ago.

I think your conclusion is wrong, which is just my opinion, but your info is also objectively wrong.

In the 3rd round, the likelihood of drafting an NHLer is around 25% (just an NHLer). Between 2008 and 2018 Button drafted eight third rounders, two of them were Bouma and Fox (two others played NHL games, so you’re wrong, but you’re just extra wrong because you forgot Fox). So, 20% just on those two, and one of them was a Norris winner, which probably makes up for being 5% off the average.

During the same period in the 4th round, they chose 5 NHLers out of 12 picks. One of which went on to score 115 points in one season. Well above average.

Between the 5th and the 7th, you hover around 10-15%. They got 3 bonafide NHLers (and a handful more who played half a season or so) out of 27, so just over ten percent.

Going back to the second round, the likelihood is around 35% and they got 4 legit NHLers out of 10 picks.

Overall, there’s some bad but also some really good. You’d be lucky to hire someone better in all likelihood, because he’s certainly performed above average in a lot of rounds. Though, I see you’re also into taking credit away for the good picks and giving extra “credit” for the bad, so I doubt any of this convinces you.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's impossible to really know because there are other factors. The influence of GMs and the larger scouting staff as a whole play a part as well. If the GM thinks he's smarter than the scouts, it doesn't matter how good your head scout is. And if the regular scouts suck, then the data and information they provide to Button would reflect that. And you can't discount player development, which I think had an impact at various time in the Flames past.

I kind of have to think he is good at his job just based on his survivability in the organization. It's not like the Flames are afraid to fire people. Unless maybe his longevity itself has created some tenured seniority that makes it impossible to fire him without it coming from ownership itself and the interpersonal relationships at that level make him untouchable. I doubt that is the case, but it's possible.

I could be misremembering, but I seem to recall that there is or was a Flames scout who had a knack for identifying defensemen deeper in the draft, and the Flames used to designate a pick every draft that he could choose who to select. Does anyone remember who that was or if I just dreamed it.

[edslunch]

This reminds me of the endless Sigalet discussions….a guy who has responsibility for an important aspect of the team but is hard for fans to evaluate due to other organization factors. Yet the net results are mediocre. You’d like to think that if they were excellent at their jobs it would show through to some extent.

[GioforPM]

I think it's sort of accepted that GMs are generally more involved in first round choices and less so as the picks get deeper. And it's the first round where, until the Treliving era, that the picks were just not good enough. And Treliving traded too many of his. To the extent Button ID'd later picks, he's done a good job.

[Flamesfan05]

Button was horrific until 2013 when the flames started to have high picks. 2013-2016 were good for him but he has been mediocre since then.

He is living off those few good years, 2013-2016

[1qqaaz]

The 2011 draft, one of the Flames' best drafts in the past 25 years, was suddenly a lot better than the previous ~10 drafts.

I think it was largely Feaster letting Button take the lead.
But then in 2012, Weisbrod had too much of a voice.

[Flamesfan05]

2011 they got Gaudreau after passing him 3 times . The first 3 picks were mediocre at best. How was that their best draft?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

2011 they got Gaudreau after passing him 3 times . The first 3 picks were mediocre at best. How was that their best draft?

Because 5 out of 6 players played over 100 games. That's pretty unusual.

[BigThief]

I mean 2016 with Matthew Tkachuk and Adam Fox blows anything else out of the water. Two legit star players. Sure they don't play for us but still..

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigThief

I mean 2016 with Matthew Tkachuk and Adam Fox blows anything else out of the water. Two legit star players. Sure they don't play for us but still..

1984. Gary Roberts, Brett Hull, Gary Suter, Paul Ranheim and of course Jiri Hrdina. 4 1000 game players.

[Bingo]

I don't the Flames were a good drafting team at the turn of the century. They were limited in their scope, and too focused on specific regions/needs and not enough on talent. Sutter had a size and western Canada bent.

I wouldn't call the Flames a good drafting team.

Hell they didn't even have their own AHL team for a spell, to shine a light on where they placed prospect development vs costs.

I do think they've improved a lot in the last 10-15 years, and that Dom study that shows value/draft capital pretty much spelled out what I felt I was seeing.

A group depleted in draft choices near the top of the draft still doing a whale of a job to help stock a franchise.

I wonder where that same group with all their 1st and 2nds would be in the last 5 years and today?

I can't say Button is a great scout.

I also can't say that he isn't given his recent success with less, and the influence or lack of influence of GMs over that time span.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

1984. Gary Roberts, Brett Hull, Gary Suter, Paul Ranheim and of course Jiri Hrdina. 4 1000 game players.

corrected for draft position (no top 5 picks here or anything) this is one of the all time great draft hauls- habs also killed it in 84, the famous wings draft of 89 and the Oilers (spits) set things up pretty well for themselves in 79 and 80


as for the Flames 2nd best draft ever- 16 remains in the running. for now have to give it to 81 with 2 HOFers I think MacInnis and Vernon


sadly almost every year of the 80s delivered something good to great (not sad then, just by comparison)

[dustygoon]

We can go from Button is terrible on one end to Button didn't have control over the draft and others are to blame on the other.

But in the middle is Button has had a LONG run at this and he doesn't set himself apart from being average. Why not try someone new?

He's like a passive index fund to me. Decent results, safe, but let's try someone else or a different structure.

We need to improve.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

We can go from Button is terrible on one end to Button didn't have control over the draft and others are to blame on the other.

But in the middle is Button has had a LONG run at this and he doesn't set himself apart from being average. Why not try someone new?

He's like a passive index fund to me. Decent results, safe, but let's try someone else or a different structure.

We need to improve.

Very few investments beat a passive index fund over time.

[GioforPM]

I think the criticism comes from not knowing much of other teams' drafts. Outside of teams with a lot of top 12 or so picks (which the Flames almost always hit on as well) are there teams with much better rdafting records? Who picks better on a consistent basis in rounds 2-4?

Who's a good player that, say, Florida, has picked in rounds 2-3 in the last 15 years? I can only think of one.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think the criticism comes from not knowing much of other teams' drafts. Outside of teams with a lot of top 12 or so picks (which the Flames almost always hit on as well) are there teams with much better rdafting records? Who picks better on a consistent basis in rounds 2-4?

Who's a good player that, say, Florida, has picked in rounds 2-3 in the last 15 years? I can only think of one.

Mackenzie Weegar
Also I didn't realize Florida originally drafted Zach Hyman!?!

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because 5 out of 6 players played over 100 games. That's pretty unusual.

4 not 5, Wotherspoon was a bust
Baertschi a huge disappointment
Grandlund was ok for a 2nd rounder
Gaudreau a grand slam
Broissoit a steal where he was drafted