[News] With the 143rd OA pick the Flames select RW Ryan Francis

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Because of "He who shall not be named," because he completely derails every thread he is mentioned in. You keep pumping these kid's tires and not temper expectations the fans are going to develop unreasonable expectations and things become toxic, like it was back in the Young Guns era. All they saw was failure, kind of like they are doing right now, because players are not achieving the lofty levels set for them. We should be able to objectively discuss these guys, but always keep their limitations in mind. The minute we don't, we do these kids and ourselves a disservice.

I have been here a long time, and I get the sense from most posters on this forum that they—like me and you—vividly remember the Young Guns. But I don't see the same repeated pattern that you do at all. Most of the posters on CP are pretty grounded in their expectations for prospects, and I would say that the most recent graduates, like Mangiapane, Dube and Andersson, have already far outstripped anyone's hopes about how they would perform in the NHL.

I think you are badly confusing excitement or approval for a lack of "objectivity." It's not. It is merely the recognition that a player like Francis—a fifth round pick, or Wolf—a seventh round pick—look at this early stage to be better than their draft position. That's all. And I would say that is damn well very nearly the precise definition of an "objective" appraisal.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is a lot of space between those two things. And yes, the vast majority never make it.

No one is saying build them up, but it is perfectly fine to see progress and be encouraged by it.

Otherwise, why bother entering the conversation at all? Just to get off on being 'the voice of reason'?

Hey, I can't wait to see what Francis can do at the next level. He's an intriguing player who is obviously playing above his competition. But we also have to consider the competition. That's the whole point. It's like the Tyler Parsons situation all over again. The guy had a great final two years of junior and all of a sudden he was the goaltender of the future and certain to be in the NHL in short order, even though the limitations in his game were so blatantly obvious and would hold him back. The comment then was to be optimistic, but recognize the challenges he faced. The challenges were ignored. Same thing is happening here. It's fun to look at his production and think of him doing the same for the Flames, but the reality is that production is unlikely to translate because of the obvious limitations. Not saying to be happy about his production, just recognize the massive jump in competition and style of play. But ignore that if you like.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I think when it comes to size, fans put too much importance on height and not enough on weight.

People also assume that anyone who is tall can and will gain weight, but that seldom actually happens.

Elias Pettersson is 6'2 and 176 lbs. He was four years ago. He has had 4 years to put on mass, but he hasn't. I doubt he ever will.
Mangiapane is 5'10 and 184. Mangiapane, regardless of the height, is bigger than Pettersson. And he plays like he's bigger.

Height helps for skating, weight matters for physicality.

If Francis plays like Mange, I'd be absolutely stoked!

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by New Era

Hey, I can't wait to see what Francis can do at the next level. He's an intriguing player who is obviously playing above his competition. But we also have to consider the competition. That's the whole point. It's like the Tyler Parsons situation all over again. The guy had a great final two years of junior and all of a sudden he was the goaltender of the future and certain to be in the NHL in short order, even though the limitations in his game were so blatantly obvious and would hold him back. The comment then was to be optimistic, but recognize the challenges he faced. The challenges were ignored. Same thing is happening here. It's fun to look at his production and think of him doing the same for the Flames, but the reality is that production is unlikely to translate because of the obvious limitations. Not saying to be happy about his production, just recognize the massive jump in competition and style of play. But ignore that if you like.

Have you ever had a child of your own and being excited about them growing up? Nothing wrong with being excited, people are grounded they don't need to be coddled; But you act like you don't want anyone to be excited about our prospects, it is like you have an agenda making sure that Flames fans don't enjoy their prospects.

Get the fan base riled up and start polarizing the situation until it becomes toxic. Not too hard to pinpoint some who are doing it regularly. It appears more and more that this was never about Sam Bennett, this was about getting a fans base riled up!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I have been here a long time, and I get the sense from most posters on this forum that they—like me and you—vividly remember the Young Guns. But I don't see the same repeated pattern that you do at all. Most of the posters on CP are pretty grounded in their expectations for prospects, and I would say that the most recent graduates, like Mangiapane, Dube and Andersson, have already far outstripped anyone's hopes about how they would perform in the NHL.

I think you are badly confusing excitement or approval for a lack of "objectivity." It's not. It is merely the recognition that a player like Francis—a fifth round pick, or Wolf—a seventh round pick—look at this early stage to be better than their draft position. That's all. And I would say that is damn well very nearly the precise definition of an "objective" appraisal.

I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, except maybe the expectations stuff. I think the expectations are reasonable at times, and then crazy at others. Personally, I always had high hopes for Dube and Andersson, and they have lived up to them IMO. Mangiapane has exceeded expectations and become a bit of found money. I can't say the same for other posters though. Perceptions are that there may be a disconnect or a collective over-estimation of the talent in our system and potential of the players IMO. There is talk like we are a top drafting and producing team, not a lower third to bottom five system (you defended the claim). Yes, Francis is a 5th, and Wolf is a 7th. Both have over-performed based on their draft position, which is exciting. But we still have to keep in mind they were 5th and 7th rounders for a reason. Not only did we pass on them multiple rounds, 31 other teams passed on them as well. That should give us all some pause and make us keep things in perspective, no?

[GioforPM]

I keep thinking this kid must be related to Ron Francis but I don’t think he is.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I always find it funny when someone has to be a 'realist' and start splashing water over the fire until it doesn't have a single burning ember left.


What is the point of following sports? What is the point of cheering for a sports team? Is it to have something to distract yourselves from the other part of life that is perhaps more mundane, or stressful? Why do some people think it has to be 100% serious and honest?



If I end up getting crazy high hopes for Francis, and he ends up busting, don't worry, I will be ok. I don't need someone to bring me down to 'reality' to prepare me for a potential eventuality. LoL


Also, that's some cherry-picking. The last 5th round pick was Ferland... what about the guy we picked in the 6th round who was already passed-over in the previous draft? Turned out pretty ok. What about that little midget we picked in the 4th round? Seemed to be a decent pick. Guys in the 4th round and lower range have looked good in some recent drafts - why is the '5th rounder' more important to focus on than the 4th - 6th?



Crap, lucky I have been told to not expect much out of Francis. I was about to make a long-term bet with a bookie putting all my possessions on a bet that says he will go on to score 600 goals and 1300pts!


Who cares about my perspective about what 'fandom' should be about, but I just have to scratch my head at how some people just can't be 'fun' about it, and feel that everything needs to be extremely serious with a stern nod towards pessimism. What fun is that? I just don't get. If sports (all sports, and including all relevant drafts) were both predictable and overly serious, I would find something else to do with my time. Life is short, and we live in a world that is often too serious and stressful as it is.



I would rather be a cheerleader than the smoker underneath the stands ridiculing everyone else for having fun.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I think when it comes to size, fans put too much importance on height and not enough on weight.

People also assume that anyone who is tall can and will gain weight, but that seldom actually happens.

Elias Pettersson is 6'2 and 176 lbs. He was four years ago. He has had 4 years to put on mass, but he hasn't. I doubt he ever will.
Mangiapane is 5'10 and 184. Mangiapane, regardless of the height, is bigger than Pettersson. And he plays like he's bigger.

Height helps for skating, weight matters for physicality.

You look at the short players who last, and a lot are heavy for their height, and for most, it doesn’t cost them in speed. Theo was listed at 5’6” (exaggeration) and 180 (probably low) and he was elusive and quick. They list Francis at 5’9” and 176. 20 pounds like I said is probably too much but if he gets to 5’10 and 185 that ain’t bad. That’s Derek Ryan sized, and no one really comments on how small he is. It’s Mangiapane sized and just off of Dube. None of those guys are shy and they seem like they can take a hit.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...Perceptions are that there may be a disconnect or a collective over-estimation of the talent in our system and potential of the players IMO. There is talk like we are a top drafting and producing team, not a lower third to bottom five system (you defended the claim). Yes, Francis is a 5th, and Wolf is a 7th. Both have over-performed based on their draft position, which is exciting. But we still have to keep in mind they were 5th and 7th rounders for a reason. Not only did we pass on them multiple rounds, 31 other teams passed on them as well. That should give us all some pause and make us keep things in perspective, no?

For sure, but my sense is always that the posters here are savvy enough to recognize the long-odds on any of the players to make it—so much so that it doesn't serve anyone's interest at all for you to continually bring it up every moment there is some buzz about their ongoing accomplishments.

And yeah, I have defended my belief that the team has drafted very well recently with what they have had to work with—it's that last part that is critical to the assessment of the organization which has selected fewer players in the last several years than nearly every other NHL team. The fact that the Flames are pretty regularly hitting on players outside of the first round is a clear indication that they are doing something right.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by New Era

Hey, I can't wait to see what Francis can do at the next level. He's an intriguing player who is obviously playing above his competition. But we also have to consider the competition. That's the whole point. It's like the Tyler Parsons situation all over again. The guy had a great final two years of junior and all of a sudden he was the goaltender of the future and certain to be in the NHL in short order, even though the limitations in his game were so blatantly obvious and would hold him back. The comment then was to be optimistic, but recognize the challenges he faced. The challenges were ignored. Same thing is happening here. It's fun to look at his production and think of him doing the same for the Flames, but the reality is that production is unlikely to translate because of the obvious limitations. Not saying to be happy about his production, just recognize the massive jump in competition and style of play. But ignore that if you like.

Parsons had injuries that set him back that led to depression issues. There was nothing about his game that was blatantly obvious that would hold him back. Just another bizarre take.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Have you ever had a child of your own and being excited about them growing up? Nothing wrong with being excited, people are grounded they don't need to be coddled; But you act like you don't want anyone to be excited about our prospects, it is like you have an agenda making sure that Flames fans don't enjoy their prospects.

Get the fan base riled up and start polarizing the situation until it becomes toxic. Not too hard to pinpoint some who are doing it regularly. It appears more and more that this was never about Sam Bennett, this was about getting a fans base riled up!

You are just realizing this now?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Have you ever had a child of your own and being excited about them growing up? Nothing wrong with being excited, people are grounded they don't need to be coddled; But you act like you don't want anyone to be excited about our prospects, it is like you have an agenda making sure that Flames fans don't enjoy their prospects.

Get the fan base riled up and start polarizing the situation until it becomes toxic. Not too hard to pinpoint some who are doing it regularly. It appears more and more that this was never about Sam Bennett, this was about getting a fans base riled up!

Yeah, this is bull####. There are plenty of players I get excited about and promote them as good to great prospects. Pelletier looks like a decent player with a great motor, in a similar vein to Dube. Was really good for Team Canada in playing every role given him. I see a bright future there. Zary has me really excited. Wasn't surprised that his line fell off the planet in the AHL when he was returned to the WHL. He was the straw IMO. Kid looks like a real solid addition and could be a great add in the top six. Kuznetsov is another player that I have very high hopes for, same with Ruzicka. Both have impressive skills and size that this team needs. Wolf is an intriguing prospect and one of the few late picks that I can actually get excited about, because he is so much more fundamentally sound as most goaltenders at his age than most. There is some talent in our system that should get us excited and have us looking forward to the near future. I would be excited about these guys regardless of what team they played for, and I have shown that in my support of other players around the league. What I won't get caught up in is the hype cycle over players because they are in our system or they were drafted at certain number. I won't waive pom poms because we own a kid's rights. I judge the players the same regardless of who they play for. Yes, I feel better when the play for the Flames, but they still need to be good players to earn my support. Players need to prove their worth IMO, and most can only do that when they play pro or in tournaments where they face the top players at their level.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Parsons had injuries that set him back that led to depression issues. There was nothing about his game that was blatantly obvious that would hold him back. Just another bizarre take.

Parsons was your typical junior goaltender with plenty of weaknesses. The one that really stood out was his manic style. He was hyper aggressive and overplayed so many shots that it was obvious pros would pick him apart. The guy played goal like a bull in a china shop. There is a fine line between challenging a shooter and playing yourself out of position. Parsons did the latter all the time. That works in junior against kids, but not in the pros. It was the weakness in game and something that needed to be trained out of him. In a game where goaltending has become more about positioning and puck stopping than making saves, Parsons was a square peg because of his playing style.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I keep thinking this kid must be related to Ron Francis but I don’t think he is.

That would be a funny plot twist if he was but it flew under the radar this whole time.