I remember when hating ruskies was almost a perverse level obsession for conservatives and republican aligned morons. The brainwash level is so magnificent. I would bet solid money that this group of people could easily be led to publicly supporting pedophilism or similar atrocity within 5 years.
Speaking of brainwashing, Russia was positioned as the ultimate foe of the left for many years before the start of war: stealing the election for trump, poisoning left-owned social media, enemies of progressive thinking, promoters of far-right dogma, etc. So when the war started, the historically anti-war left was now beating the drums of war harder than anyone with their sudden infatuation with no-fly zones and such.
Speaking of brainwashing, Russia was positioned as the ultimate foe of the left for many years before the start of war: stealing the election for trump, poisoning left-owned social media, enemies of progressive thinking, promoters of far-right dogma, etc. So when the war started, the historically anti-war left was now beating the drums of war harder than anyone with their sudden infatuation with no-fly zones and such.
Uhm, "beating the drums of war" of the right of a nation to defend itself isn't quite the same as "go blow up some people in the ME to protect our oil". I feel like these things shouldn't need to be typed out, but here we are.
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
I mean we could, but its not like thats going very well either.
One month into the counter-offensive and Ukraine has yet to realize any significant strategic gains. They continue to be bogged down in the grey-zone Russian minefields that are overwatched by ATGM's and attack helicopters. Most of the probes and pushes have barely made it to the 1st line of Russian defenses, let alone their 2nd or 3rd lines.
Destroyed Bradleys and Leopards are littering the battlefield, morale is low, and they are running out of artillery shells with little chance of replenishing them this year.
Combine all that with NATO giving Zelensky the cold shoulder yesterday and the outlook is rather grim imo.
Last edited by FunkMasterFlame; 07-12-2023 at 03:44 PM.
I mean we could, but its not like thats going very well either.
One month into the counter-offensive and Ukraine has yet to realize any significant strategic gains. They continue to be bogged down in the grey-zone Russian minefields that are overwatched by ATGM's and attack helicopters. Most of the probes and pushes have barely made it to the 1st line of Russian defenses, let alone their 2nd or 3rd lines.
Destroyed Bradleys and Leopards are littering the battlefield, morale is low, and they are running out of artillery shells with little chance of replenishing them this year.
Combine all that with NATO giving Zelensky the cold shoulder yesterday and the outlook is rather grim imo.
Hence the cluster munitions, they clear minefields
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to afc wimbledon For This Useful Post:
I mean we could, but its not like thats going very well either.
One month into the counter-offensive and Ukraine has yet to realize any significant strategic gains. They continue to be bogged down in the grey-zone Russian minefields that are overwatched by ATGM's and attack helicopters. Most of the probes and pushes have barely made it to the 1st line of Russian defenses, let alone their 2nd or 3rd lines.
Destroyed Bradleys and Leopards are littering the battlefield, morale is low, and they are running out of artillery shells with little chance of replenishing them this year.
Combine all that with NATO giving Zelensky the cold shoulder yesterday and the outlook is rather grim imo.
this is a good video on this topic
What Ukraine is trying to do is absolutely not an easy task.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to undercoverbrother For This Useful Post:
Cluster munitions can definitely help clear minefields, but they aren't 100% effective for that purpose and will leave unexploded bomblets and mines behind which still pose a hazard. Also, if the cluster bombs are being used to clear mine-fields then they aren't being used to attack Russian troop formations for which they are far more effectively designed. With the extreme shortage of standard artillery ammunition already, this may not be the best use for them.
More disturbingly, Russia has remote mine-laying capabilities now as well. They can use artillery to lay mines in fields that have been cleared, which has already been used to devastating effect on armor that has successfully pushed through minefields only for those cleared paths to be fully mined again on their retreat.
There was a drone video going around a few weeks ago showing the absolute horror of dealing with modern minefields, with Ukrainian troops getting caught in them and having various limbs blown off. Its disturbing and graphic, but I think its important to watch; to honor their sacrifice, and to fully understand the utter depravity and merciless nature of modern war.
Cluster munitions can definitely help clear minefields, but they aren't 100% effective for that purpose and will leave unexploded bomblets and mines behind which still pose a hazard. Also, if the cluster bombs are being used to clear mine-fields then they aren't being used to attack Russian troop formations for which they are far more effectively designed. With the extreme shortage of standard artillery ammunition already, this may not be the best use for them.
More disturbingly, Russia has remote mine-laying capabilities now as well. They can use artillery to lay mines in fields that have been cleared, which has already been used to devastating effect on armor that has successfully pushed through minefields only for those cleared paths to be fully mined again on their retreat.
There was a drone video going around a few weeks ago showing the absolute horror of dealing with modern minefields, with Ukrainian troops getting caught in them and having various limbs blown off. Its disturbing and graphic, but I think its important to watch; to honor their sacrifice, and to fully understand the utter depravity and merciless nature of modern war.
You know seeing videos like this and hearing some of the stories from pro Russian side etc and it really makes me wonder sometimes if we are getting the full picture.
At the beginning of the offensive when some people were saying that Ukraine was running low on ammunition, had NATO style western weapons but were not trained on them properly, offensive going much slower than people thought etc. You think it's BS.
Seeing some of the developments, the video above with the military general showing how hard this will be, NATO training pilots for a quick 6 months course.
Really what will be left of the Ukrainian side by year's end? Brutal.
Ukraine seems to be given extreme advantages in some aspects, top notch weapons, US and NATO intel, training and more. They have the will and the heart for their land but Russia's sheer size and brutality and time to set up defensive positions shows a different angle.
That video and where this may be going for the good guys just depressed the hell out of me. Godspeed to those defenders.
Offensives against prepared defences are tough. Typically, you need a 3:1 local force advantage. Without air superiority and against a defender with parity in numbers, Ukraine’s offensive was always going to be a tall order.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Russian boosters are going to squeal the loudest when things aren't going well. This is the highest ranking officer killed in Ukraine so far in the war.
Another general was dismissed yesterday for complaining about the state of affairs within MoD, echoing Wagner's complaints about the overall situation. .
I mean we could, but its not like thats going very well either.
One month into the counter-offensive and Ukraine has yet to realize any significant strategic gains. They continue to be bogged down in the grey-zone Russian minefields that are overwatched by ATGM's and attack helicopters. Most of the probes and pushes have barely made it to the 1st line of Russian defenses, let alone their 2nd or 3rd lines.
War and attrition are not homogeneous. The defenders are fighting against having their land taken, their family members tortured, their children stolen, and having a 4 year old perform oral sex on a Russian soldier in front of their family. The Ukrainians have something worth dying for. Russia doesn't. Sadly, that has to reach a culmination. Russia doesn't have unlimited reserves and are already making tough decisions on where to fortify and where to retreat. Bakhmut is getting slowly encircled and the line is moving. It doesn't move in increments forever.
Quote:
Destroyed Bradleys and Leopards are littering the battlefield, morale is low, and they are running out of artillery shells with little chance of replenishing them this year.
This is Russian propaganda. Yes some Bradley's have been hit (estimates are 15-20) and a handful of Leopard tanks. This is war. Nobody gave them to Ukraine and said you can't lose them. The purpose of using Bradley's is to safely get soldiers in and out of the battle and so far that's worked almost flawlessly. They're way safer than the other Soviet IFV death traps they have. Where do you get morale is low? I don't see all the videos complaining about being sent to meat assaults without weapons like the Russians have
Quote:
Combine all that with NATO giving Zelensky the cold shoulder yesterday and the outlook is rather grim imo.
NATO certainly didn't give Zelensky the cold shoulder. I mean, first of all the whole summit was about Ukraine and he was the guest of honor. Secondly, they announced significant increases in materiel procurement. Lastly, they were given security guarantees and told NATO membership is a discussion for after the way which was always going to be the case. I've only seen the "cold shoulder" reports on Russian outlets.
Last edited by Street Pharmacist; 07-13-2023 at 07:53 AM.
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Street Pharmacist For This Useful Post:
War and attrition are not homogeneous. The defenders are fighting against having their land taken, their family members tortured, their children stolen, and having a 4 year old perform oral sex on a Russian soldier in front of their family. The Ukrainians have something worth dying for. Russia doesn't. Sadly, that has to reach a culmination. Russia doesn't have unlimited reserves and are already making tough decisions on where to fortify and where to retreat. Bakhmut is getting slowly encircled and the line is moving. It doesn't move in increments forever.
This is Russian propaganda. Yes some Bradley's have been hit (estimates are 15-20) and a handful of Leopard tanks. This is war. Nobody gave them to Ukraine and said you can't lose them. The purpose of using Bradley's is to safely get soldiers in and out of the battle and so far that's worked almost flawlessly. They're way safer than the other Soviet IFV death traps they have. Where do you get morale is low? I don't see all the videos complaining about being sent to meat assaults without weapons like the Russians have
NATO certainly didn't give Zelensky the cold shoulder. I mean, first of all the whole summit was about Ukraine and he was the guest of honor. Secondly, they announced significant increases in materiel procurement. Lastly, they were given security guarantees and told NATO membership is a discussion for after the way which was always going to be the case. I've only seen the "cold shoulder" reports on Russian outlets.
Plus this part from yesterday:
Quote:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, Mr. President, welcome. And I hope you all got a sense today from all my colleagues that — how — how much that you have — how much support you have. It’s real. And I hope we finally have put to bed the notion about whether or not Ukraine is welcome in NATO. It’s going to happen....
....And I look forward to the day when we’re having the meeting celebrating your official — official membership in NATO.
So, thank you for what you’re doing.
And the bad news for you is: We’re not going anywhere. (Laughter.) You’re stuck with us.
Well, thank you.
PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
This is Russian propaganda. Yes some Bradley's have been hit (estimates are 15-20) and a handful of Leopard tanks.
I don't think that's correct. Oryx has 34 visually confirmed Bradley losses (though a few can probably be repaired), plus any that haven't been visually confirmed. Given that they only received 124 of them, that's a pretty significant attrition rate in a couple of months.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
I don't think that's correct. Oryx has 34 visually confirmed Bradley losses (though a few can probably be repaired), plus any that haven't been visually confirmed. Given that they only received 124 of them, that's a pretty significant attrition rate in a couple of months.
Couldn't find a current Bradley's estimate. But only a few Leopards. The point was that this "battlefield littered with Bradley's and Leopards" was one column that hit mines that was viewed from 30 different angles and plastered on every Russian channel for weeks as separate events
The Following User Says Thank You to Street Pharmacist For This Useful Post:
Couldn't find a current Bradley's estimate. But only a few Leopards. The point was that this "battlefield littered with Bradley's and Leopards" was one column that hit mines that was viewed from 30 different angles and plastered on every Russian channel for weeks as separate events
I've seen photos of 3 "knocked out" Leoard II's with photos of several other damaged to date. Perun had a figure of 8 "knocked out" or damaged in one of his videos. All have been recovered and are in 1st line or 2nd line repair or in rebuild. Can't do that with any of the T series of MBTs. Hit those and ~90% are total write offs. Not even worth attempting to use as a sources of spare parts.
Same with the Bradelys. A sigificant number of them have been repaired and some are back in service. As Street Phamacist mentioned, we are seeing the same vehicles time and time again in the news. There was a bit of a kerffufle on the Russian telegram a while back when it was realised that the survivability of the Bradley and it's crews is well beyond anything the Russian kit has to offer. The Ukranians are going into action with these vehicles with the knowledge that even if they are hit, their chances of surviving is quite high.
Edit: Just checked Oryx. He has 3 Leopard II as destroyed and 5 damaged. (Matches Perun). Those 5 will be back in service far quicker than any T series tank. Also has 15 destroyed Bradleys and 17 damaged. Again, those damaged Bradleys will be/are back in service far faster than any BMP series vehicle.
Last edited by Ugly Kid Joe; 07-13-2023 at 12:33 PM.
Reason: Oryx Update
The Following User Says Thank You to Ugly Kid Joe For This Useful Post:
