Ukraine making use of whatever they can get their hands on is more understandable under the circumstances. I don't think being at war excuses everything, and there are limits even under their circumstances, but it's understandable.
The US is the party with the much more dubious moral position in choosing to send this kind of munitions. If they want to help, it's not like they don't have other options available, so the choice to send cluster bombs is a matter of weighing their own strategic interests in preserving other weaponry against actively enabling what they described as a war crime not too long ago.
Their choice also looks bad again for the idea of the "rules based order" championed by them, because they don't sign treaties like this.
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Legal vs illegal weapons or warcrimes in general is such an odd concept to me. Like there's murder but then extra bad murder? Putin invaded a nation with the purpose to take it, there is no action they can take not that's not "illegal". Is there any action Ukraine can take that is "illegal" to defend itself? For everything they do it basically comes with the caveat of "yeah, but....".
I honestly am not sure how I feel about it.
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Ukraine making use of whatever they can get their hands on is more understandable under the circumstances. I don't think being at war excuses everything, and there are limits even under their circumstances, but it's understandable.
The US is the party with the much more dubious moral position in choosing to send this kind of munitions. If they want to help, it's not like they don't have other options available, so the choice to send cluster bombs is a matter of weighing their own strategic interests in preserving other weaponry against actively enabling what they described as a war crime not too long ago.
Their choice also looks bad again for the idea of the "rules based order" championed by them, because they don't sign treaties like this.
Meh. No idea who didn't sign it first or not but unless Russia is going to sign it, then I don't see why the US would. Be stupid to limit weapons that your main rival doesn't limit.
Legal vs illegal weapons or warcrimes in general is such an odd concept to me. Like there's murder but then extra bad murder? Putin invaded a nation with the purpose to take it, there is no action they can take not that's not "illegal". Is there any action Ukraine can take that is "illegal" to defend itself? For everything they do it basically comes with the caveat of "yeah, but....".
I honestly am not sure how I feel about it.
Yes, but some conflicts are morally justified, but there are rules about how to fight these conflicts.
When the tide of this war turns, and the Ukrainians start driving back enemy forces, Ukraine does not have the right to summary executions of prisoners for instance or forced deportations of insurgent Russian civilians. A Ukrainian combatant killing a Russian combatant is legal, justified and acceptable.
I agree that every action of the Russian is illegal/criminal, because their invasion is criminal.
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Holy smokes, Erdogan has just agreed to send Sweden's NATO accession protocol for joining NATO to the Turkish Parliament as swiftly as possible with the intention to have it approved.
There was a lot of speculation that Erdogan was using a hard approach against Sweden to get support from hardliners, but that he would change gears after the election. It looks like it came to fruition.
This also comes off the heels of Erdogan sending 5 Ukrainian Azov officers back to Ukraine this weekend, which really pissed Russia off. They were part of a prisoner exchange Turkey negotiated, but the agreement was that the officers would have to stay in exile in Turkey until after the way.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 07-10-2023 at 03:58 PM.
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Holy smokes, Erdogan has just agreed to send Sweden's NATO accession protocol for joining NATO to the Turkish Parliament as swiftly as possible with the intention to have it approved.
There was a lot of speculation that Erdogan was using a hard approach against Sweden to get support hardliners, but that he would change gears after the election. It looks like it came to fruition.
This also comes off the heals of Erdogan sending 5 Ukrainian Azov officers back to Ukraine this weekend, which really pissed Russia off. They were part of a prisoner exchange Turkey negotiated, but the agreement was that the officers would have to stay in exile in Turkey until after the way.
Putin sure has done a fantastic job of stopping NATO expansion.
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I heard a good quote regarding the cluster munition topic....
What is worse, Unexploded ordinance on Ukrainian soil or... Unexploded Russian troops on Ukrainian soil.
How about: What is worse, the US further dipping into its own reserves of munitions and temporarily not having enough to wage war elsewhere, or children and other civilians having their limbs blown off or getting blown up for years into the future?
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Legal vs illegal weapons or warcrimes in general is such an odd concept to me. Like there's murder but then extra bad murder? Putin invaded a nation with the purpose to take it, there is no action they can take not that's not "illegal". Is there any action Ukraine can take that is "illegal" to defend itself? For everything they do it basically comes with the caveat of "yeah, but....".
I honestly am not sure how I feel about it.
The reason for the treaty on cluster munitions is not because they kill differently. It's because 1% or more don't explode when they're supposed to and kill civilians years and decades after the way
The reason for the treaty on cluster munitions is not because they kill differently. It's because 1% or more don't explode when they're supposed to and kill civilians years and decades after the way
I understand that. But they are already being used on their soil anyways, and will have to swept for afterwards regardless.
Again, I'm genuinely not sure my stance. War is messed up.
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Turkey has slapped Putin twice in the past few days, first by releasing the Azov commanders back to Ukraine after meeting with Zelenskyy, then by approving Sweden into NATO. The U.S. sending cluster bombs. Canada announcing that they are doubling their military presence in Latvia. It just feels like they are getting ready for something big to happen.
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I understand that. But they are already being used on their soil anyways, and will have to swept for afterwards regardless.
Again, I'm genuinely not sure my stance. War is messed up.
I get it. The reason I point out the distinction is that for the protection of innocent people it is necessary to draw lines just like we do with anything else. Speeding, moving freight, boating, etc. But sometimes you need to get somewhere and the rules as well as the reason for the rules are secondary to the pragmatic realities you're facing. You've got a child bleeding out in the back seat you speed to the hospital laws be damned.
That's where I'm at. Ukraine doesn't have enough artillery shells and the offensive will culminate long before man power or materiel would dictate. The only way to rectify that is to use shells more efficiently and give them what you have. That's just where we are, so the decision is necessary
Speaking of NATO, former Australia PM, Paul Keating came out today with some surprisingly harsh words for NATO's recent actions of expansion in Asia.
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Australia’s former prime minister Paul Keating#has labelled the head of Nato a “supreme fool” for his push to increase the alliance’s ties with Asia in an attempt to contain China.
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In a statement, Keating praised French president Emmanuel Macron for warning Nato “away from any expansion into Asia, reminding all and sundry of Nato’s Atlantic design and focus”.
Paris has opposed Nato plans to open a liaison office in Japan, which would be the alliance’s first outpost in the region. The Vilnius summit was also reportedly to see the announcement of a new partnership between Nato and Japan which could see more joint military drills and interoperability.
Keating said that Asia’s “promise” after its recent development “would be compromised by having anything to do with the militarism of Europe – and militarism egged on by the United States.
“Of all the people on the international stage the supreme fool among them is Jens Stoltenberg, the current secretary-general of Nato.
“Stoltenberg by instinct and by policy, is simply an accident on its way to happen.”
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“Stoltenberg, in his jaundiced view, overlooks the fact that China represents twenty per cent of humanity and now possesses the largest economy in the world … and has no record of attacking other states, unlike the United States, whose bidding Stoltenberg is happy to do,” Keating said.
What is Hungary's malfunction? I'm really shocked by how anti-nato they are for being in NATO.
Orban's government is very closely aligned with Putin. History of it is actually pretty fascinating. Orban starts as the most anti Kremlin member of the government, visits Putin to work on relations and after a closed door meeting suddenly is extremely pro Putin
In the case of Orban, the seamless shift from Russophobe to Russophile was so abrupt that many even in his Fidesz party found it hard to explain. Analysts date it back to November 2009, when Orban, as opposition leader, was invited to St Petersburg to meet Putin at the congress of the Kremlin-backed United Russia party. They argue Orban clearly went on a mission to put bilateral relations on a new footing, and while it is unknown what exactly happened behind closed doors, Orban heard enough to drastically change his attitude towards Russia and Putin himself.
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