Justin Trudeau says marijuana should be legalized

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

You are focusing too much on the precise numbers. I picked 10 million out of a hat, and was not using it as a baseline representation of the Canadian population of teenagers.

I was merely illustrating that an increased rate of mental illness causes an increased burden on society. What that number ends up being will invariably depend on the population affected.

The flippant disregard for mental illness is troubling. It's like saying in regard to cigarettes "well, some cigarette caused cancers are less awful than others."

The point is the action causes the result, and while the result has varying degrees of impact to the individual and society, why are we sanctioning something that universally has a negative aggregate impact on society?

Personally, I don't think I should have to be responsible as a tax payer for paying for pot heads who increase their risk of mental illness. But perhaps my lack of socialist tendencies is clouding my opinion.

You seem to have missed some key points here. Please read back a few pages. I'm not sure how you can arrive at any of these conclusions after whats already been discussed.

[polak]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Personally, I don't think I should have to be responsible as a tax payer for paying for pot heads who increase their risk of mental illness. But perhaps my lack of socialist tendencies is clouding my opinion.

lol has anyone met anyone that smoked weed and had it trigger some debilitating mental illness?

I think the bigger concern is smoking and hurting your lungs. This mental illness thing is microscopic compared to that.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

You are focusing too much on the precise numbers. I picked 10 million out of a hat, and was not using it as a baseline representation of the Canadian population of teenagers.

I was merely illustrating that an increased rate of mental illness causes an increased burden on society. What that number ends up being will invariably depend on the population affected.

The flippant disregard for mental illness is troubling. It's like saying in regard to cigarettes "well, some cigarette caused cancers are less awful than others."

The point is the action causes the result, and while the result has varying degrees of impact to the individual and society, why are we sanctioning something that universally has a negative aggregate impact on society?

Personally, I don't think I should have to be responsible as a tax payer for paying for pot heads who increase their risk of mental illness. But perhaps my lack of socialist tendencies is clouding my opinion.

The notion that anyone (or specifically me) has a "flippant disregard for mental illness" is frankly insulting, and nowhere in my post was that opinion reflected. Your issue seemed to be the monetary cost that a possible increase in mental health issues have on our society. I was just illustrating how A) your numbers are bogus which you state initially so that's fine, but if you actually want to make a strong point about an increase in mental health costs, you should at least try to hit a ball park. it took me 2 seconds to find that information. And it is very much skewed by the factors I mentioned to land on a monetary cost that is a very large and alarming number. But it's not even close to the truth. And it's flippant posts like that which get people up and arms who are too lazy to do the research themselves. Some error is fine in guess work, but when I cut your population size in half with 2 seconds of research (and apply a very liberal estimate on top of the stats I found) your point is, IMO, out to lunch.

If your issue is the studies showing ANY correlation to mental illness, may I suggest you expand your list of products to be made illegal, as weed is definitely not the only one, and most certainly not the worst.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by polak

lol has anyone met anyone that smoked weed and had it trigger some debilitating mental illness?

You're talking like there's even a 50/50 chance.

I think the bigger concern is smoking and hurting your lungs. This mental illness thing is microscopic compared to that.

The aggregate evidence presented indicates that smoking marijuana drastically increases the chance of developing a mental illness.

The article I posted from the Canadian mental health commission indicated that 1 in 5 Canadians live with some form of mental health issue. Holy crap! 20% of Canadians are immediately more susceptible and vulnerable to the impacts of psychotic drugs.

That doesn't even begin to address that smoking weed is as comparably bad for your lungs, mouth, etc. as cigarettes.

The mental gymnastics pot heads go through to justify their addiction is pretty impressive.

[polak]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

The aggregate evidence presented indicates that smoking marijuana drastically increases the chance of developing a mental illness.

The article I posted from the Canadian mental health commission indicated that 1 in 5 Canadians live with some form of mental health issue. Holy crap! 20% of Canadians are immediately more susceptible and vulnerable to the impacts of psychotic drugs.

That doesn't even begin to address that smoking weed is as comparably bad for your lungs, mouth, etc. as cigarettes.

The mental gymnastics pot heads go through to justify their addiction is pretty impressive.

You're the one doing the gymnastics.

Pretty much everyone I know has smoked weed and most people I know do it semi-regularly. None of them have had a mental illness triggered by smoking Marijuana. None of them even know anyone that has. No one on here is even claiming to know anyone that has. I have never, not once, in my life, heard of anyone smoking marijuana and having it form some sort of debilitating mental illness.

Yes the studies say that in youth there is some correlation but on a personal level, no gymnastics, no mental leaps, This is literally unheard of to me.

You're the one trying to connect all of these dots.

Also, no one here is trying to argue that it's good for you. No one is trying to justify it. Please show me one person that is trying to justify regular weed smoking?

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The notion that anyone (or specifically me) has a "flippant disregard for mental illness" is frankly insulting, and nowhere in my post was that opinion reflected. Your issue seemed to be the monetary cost that a possible increase in mental health issues have on our society. I was just illustrating how A) your numbers are bogus which you state initially so that's fine, but if you actually want to make a strong point about an increase in mental health costs, you should at least try to hit a ball park. it took me 2 seconds to find that information. And it is very much skewed by the factors I mentioned to land on a monetary cost that is a very large and alarming number. But it's not even close to the truth. And it's flippant posts like that which get people up and arms who are too lazy to do the research themselves. Some error is fine in guess work, but when I cut your population size in half with 2 seconds of research (and apply a very liberal estimate on top of the stats I found) your point is, IMO, out to lunch.

If your issue is the studies showing ANY correlation to mental illness, may I suggest you expand your list of products to be made illegal, as weed is definitely not the only one, and most certainly not the worst.

This entire thread has weighed in on the impacts of marijuana, and utilized studies conducted from around the globe.

Choosing an arbitrary figure of 10 Million teenagers is not bogus in any way. If I was using that number as a representation of the Canadian population, then yes it would be inaccurate, but I wasn't, and clearly stated such.

So if you want a more accurate Canadian based estimate, here you go:

Per StatsCan 2011 census data:

Canadian population aged 10-24 = 6,285,940

Assuming 15% of population is a pot head = 6,285,940 * .15 = 942,891

Aggregate increase of incidence rate of mental illness = .042 -.007 = .035

942,891 * .035 = 33,001 aggregate increase in incidence of mental illness

33,001 * $150,000 = ~$5Bn lifetime aggregate medical burden increase.

So, just to break even on the social cost, the marijuana industry conservatively needs to generate $5Bn of tax revenue.

Without considering the impact or costs on families, employers, etc. etc. etc.

The world is your oyster, pot heads. Have at it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

The aggregate evidence presented indicates that smoking marijuana drastically increases the chance of developing a mental illness.

The article I posted from the Canadian mental health commission indicated that 1 in 5 Canadians live with some form of mental health issue. Holy crap! 20% of Canadians are immediately more susceptible and vulnerable to the impacts of psychotic drugs.

You don't think that this is a separate issue that should get more focus? What does this have to do with weed? It's not good, but are you going to blame all 20% on weed use? If not, you need to agree that we should be doing more research into the causes of mental health. And I think we could all agree on that.

Don't you think that educating kids properly about the risks of using these drugs, and maybe getting checked for signs of mental illness before hand would be a good idea? The bottom line is having it illegal is NOT keeping it out of their hands. You have to put multiple year prison sentences on possession (want to do the cost analysis on that?) to give incentive enough to remove most of it from the system And EVEN THEN. People will still get it.

That doesn't even begin to address that smoking weed is as comparably bad for your lungs, mouth, etc. as cigarettes.

The mental gymnastics pot heads go through to justify their addiction is pretty impressive.

It's not about justifying an addiction (which not all pot users have. It's used for a variety of reasons, in a variety of quantities), it's asking are the costs of keeping it illegal outweighed by legalization. You tried to make it seem like it wouldn't be. I poke some pretty severe holes in your analysis of that point.

So is your issue that it shows a correlation with mental health issues at all? Because, again, there at least a few legal things that we accept that risk for, what makes this different? Do you think hiding kids from it's effects and just telling them it's bad is going to help the ones who are vulnerable moreso than having it legalized, regulated, age limits, quality controlled, and teaching the kids the dangers involved when taking it, even if the effects are not immediate?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

This entire thread has weighed in on the impacts of marijuana, and utilized studies conducted from around the globe.

Choosing an arbitrary figure of 10 Million teenagers is not bogus in any way. If I was using that number as a representation of the Canadian population, then yes it would be inaccurate, but I wasn't, and clearly stated such.

So if you want a more accurate Canadian based estimate, here you go:

Per StatsCan 2011 census data:

Canadian population aged 10-24 = 6,285,940 Why are you including the ages 10-13. We all went to school Does anyone know people that started smoking this young? I don't, and I went to a school riddled with drugs. And why are you including people over 18, people not considered to be youths in any of the studies?

Assuming 15% of population is a pot head = 6,285,940 * .15 = 942,891 Source for percentage of population?

Aggregate increase of incidence rate of mental illness = .042 -.007 = .035

942,891 * .035 = 33,001 aggregate increase in incidence of mental illness

33,001 * $150,000 = ~$5Bn lifetime aggregate medical burden increase.

So, just to break even on the social cost, the marijuana industry conservatively needs to generate $5Bn of tax revenue. Over the entire life of it's availability? If you don't think it will crush that figure within 2 years of being available you are being deliberately dense.

Without considering the impact or costs on families, employers, etc. etc. etc.

The world is your oyster, pot heads. Have at it.

Can you stop with this? It's been said over and over again that people from every section of society use this product. It's been used for medicinal purposes and, yes, destructive purposes. The people who use it, and their motivations for wanting it legal, are not all the same.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

This entire thread has weighed in on the impacts of marijuana, and utilized studies conducted from around the globe.

Choosing an arbitrary figure of 10 Million teenagers is not bogus in any way. If I was using that number as a representation of the Canadian population, then yes it would be inaccurate, but I wasn't, and clearly stated such.

So if you want a more accurate Canadian based estimate, here you go:

Per StatsCan 2011 census data:

Canadian population aged 10-24 = 6,285,940

Assuming 15% of population is a pot head = 6,285,940 * .15 = 942,891

Aggregate increase of incidence rate of mental illness = .042 -.007 = .035

942,891 * .035 = 33,001 aggregate increase in incidence of mental illness

33,001 * $150,000 = ~$5Bn lifetime aggregate medical burden increase.

So, just to break even on the social cost, the marijuana industry conservatively needs to generate $5Bn of tax revenue.

Without considering the impact or costs on families, employers, etc. etc. etc.

The world is your oyster, pot heads. Have at it.

$5B tax revenue from legalized marijuana over a 'lifetime' seems doable, no?

If you have legitimate points to make, stop saying 'pot heads'... it makes you sound like some angry out-of-touch Mom talking to her teenager.

[PsYcNeT]

Wait why would 15% of the population be pot heads?

That seems extraordinarily high. Only 7.2% of the population are considered alcoholics in the US.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-hea...-use-disorders

I think you're spitballing some worst case scenarios here. I think you should learn to be more "conservative" in your estimates. Ha.

[IliketoPuck]

Ages 10-13 included as I have personally experienced many children in that age range who do smoke. Agess over 18 up to 24 included as that is actually the demographic most susceptible to developing mental health issues.

% of population: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle11221668/ Conservatively reduced to 15% as the 37.5% number reported in Canada seems too high (feel free to increase at your discretion).

The pot industry will certainly generate more than $5Bn in taxes, and will do so quickly. That is not something I'm challenging. What I am pointing out is that the tax revenue comes with a societal cost.

As someone who has a generally socialist viewpoint, I would have thought you would be more understanding of that.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Can you stop with this? It's been said over and over again that people from every section of society use this product. It's been used for medicinal purposes and, yes, destructive purposes. The people who use it, and their motivations for wanting it legal, are not all the same.

I wonder if they know their biggest allies on this matter are drug dealers...

Every level of society smokes weed. These citizens work in every profession including politics and policing. It's probably the only pastime that all classes have in common which I find kind of awesome.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Ages 10-13 included as I have personally experienced many children in that age range who do smoke. Agess over 18 up to 24 included as that is actually the demographic most susceptible to developing mental health issues.

% of population: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle11221668/ Conservatively reduced to 15% as the 37.5% number reported in Canada seems too high (feel free to increase at your discretion).

The pot industry will certainly generate more than $5Bn in taxes, and will do so quickly. That is not something I'm challenging. What I am pointing out is that the tax revenue comes with a societal cost.

As someone who has a generally socialist viewpoint, I would have thought you would be more understanding of that.

How much usage are you using to classify "pot heads"? There is no DSM entry centred around "pot heads" as far as I know.

Also, you are bad at reading statistics. The article shows it was 28% of teens in 2012 had tried marijuana in the last year. As in, smoked it once or more. I don't think doing anything once classifies you as anything. Well, except murder, that would make you a murderer.

Teens. Always doing the weed and murdering hobos.

[IliketoPuck]

Per that Harvard article posted earlier:

"The heaviest users (who said they used marijuana more than 50 times) were six times as likely to develop schizophrenia as the nonsmokers." Baseline of 7/1000.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

This entire thread has weighed in on the impacts of marijuana, and utilized studies conducted from around the globe.

Choosing an arbitrary figure of 10 Million teenagers is not bogus in any way. If I was using that number as a representation of the Canadian population, then yes it would be inaccurate, but I wasn't, and clearly stated such.

So if you want a more accurate Canadian based estimate, here you go:

Per StatsCan 2011 census data:

Canadian population aged 10-24 = 6,285,940

Assuming 15% of population is a pot head = 6,285,940 * .15 = 942,891

Aggregate increase of incidence rate of mental illness = .042 -.007 = .035

942,891 * .035 = 33,001 aggregate increase in incidence of mental illness

33,001 * $150,000 = ~$5Bn lifetime aggregate medical burden increase.

So, just to break even on the social cost, the marijuana industry conservatively needs to generate $5Bn of tax revenue.

Without considering the impact or costs on families, employers, etc. etc. etc.

The world is your oyster, pot heads. Have at it.

You only have a 10-15%% increase in usage among young people if you go buy the early Colorado data. which may or may not be valid. So if you want to overstate the effects say 1.5%-2.5% of your age sample would smoke marijuana who otherwise wouldn't. Worst case.

Then also factor in usage amounts required to cause mental illness as you seem to be assuming everyone who uses will use regularly when statistics ask have you used in past month to hit your 15% level.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Ages 10-13 included as I have personally experienced many children in that age range who do smoke.

Really? How many? Can you count them on one hand? I don't think the number of kids smoking pot under 13 is statistically significant.

Agess over 18 up to 24 included as that is actually the demographic most susceptible to developing mental health issues.

Fair enough

% of population: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle11221668/ Conservatively reduced to 15% as the 37.5% number reported in Canada seems too high (feel free to increase at your discretion).

% of the population range you chose, not the total population. (IE the graph of Colorado is youth users, which seems to float between 6-10%). I would bet money that more than 30% of adults smoke weed on a semi-regular basis (once a month or more). You're applying a percentage of 30 million people to less than a third of that.

The pot industry will certainly generate more than $5Bn in taxes, and will do so quickly. That is not something I'm challenging. What I am pointing out is that the tax revenue comes with a societal cost.

As someone who has a generally socialist viewpoint, I would have thought you would be more understanding of that.

I can see why you would think that, but I am of the opinion that the increased education and investment in mental health resources with, in time, reduce both the amount of youth who smoke (like it has for cigarettes) and the mental health issues triggered by it (because the kids who are vulnerable will be identified earlier).

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by GGG

You only have a 10-15%% increase in usage among young people if you go buy the early Colorado data. which may or may not be valid. So if you want to overstate the effects say 1.5%-2.5% of your age sample would smoke marijuana who otherwise wouldn't. Worst case.

Then also factor in usage amounts required to cause mental illness as you seem to be assuming everyone who uses will use regularly when statistics ask have you used in past month to hit your 15% level.

That Harvard article seems to indicate that it is more an absolute numbers game than anything.

And by that, I mean that smoking 50 times total, is their baseline for having achieved "heavy use."

50 times is pretty easy to hit. Say those who use it as a teen do so twice a month. That's two years of smoking. That's all it takes to hit the 50 threshold.

At the end of the day, maybe the incidence rate only increases a few percent. The issue remains that this is a drug that causes lung disease in addition to amplifying psychosis.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

That Harvard article seems to indicate that it is more an absolute numbers game than anything.

And by that, I mean that smoking 50 times total, is their baseline for having achieved "heavy use."

50 times is pretty easy to hit. Say those who use it as a teen do so twice a month. That's two years of smoking. That's all it takes to hit the 50 threshold.

At the end of the day, maybe the incidence rate only increases a few percent. The issue remains that this is a drug that causes lung disease in addition to amplifying psychosis.

Then there are these articles, one also from Harvard.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/12...nia/63148.html



http://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/sch...rticle/441267/


http://medicalmarijuana.co.uk/dr-ras...schizophrenia/

https://www.merryjane.com/news/debun...-schizophrenia

http://reset.me/study/study-debunked...use-psychosis/

[Coach]

Whew. I need a hoot.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

How much usage are you using to classify "pot heads"? There is no DSM entry centred around "pot heads" as far as I know.

Also, you are bad at reading statistics. The article shows it was 28% of teens in 2012 had tried marijuana in the last year. As in, smoked it once or more. I don't think doing anything once classifies you as anything. Well, except murder, that would make you a murderer.

Teens. Always doing the weed and murdering hobos.

Bad at reading statistics, that's cute.

I'll accept guilty of skimming an article because I don't have time to read the whole thing.