Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[powderjunkie]

The biggest thing for me with a new arena is that it isn't actually creating anything NEW - it's simply a replacement for what we already have.


Many people disagree, but I'd rather live out the full lifecycle of the Saddledome (another 10-15 yrs IMO) and use the money for projects that are actually NEW. In the meantime, implement a ticket tax to build a small kitty that can help close the negotiating gap between the parties.

The Saddledome is a perfectly capable, fully loaded 2004 Honda Odyssey without any pending maintenance needs beyond oil changes (we just replaced the tires, brakes, and timing belt after the flood). It's fully paid off and costs next to nothing to operate.

We want to trade it in for brand new F350. Insurance costs a lot more (ticket prices), gas costs a bit more (concessions). The vehicle seats fewer people, but it does let us go further off-road 2-3 times year when we go camping (so-called big concerts skipping us for Edmonton). Don't get me wrong, there are some great new features like a better stereo system and wireless phone charger, but there will also be some unanticipated drawbacks (maybe harder to park, etc. - people in the E=NG thread have talked about how their new building feels 'soul-less')

We've always known we would need a new car eventually, just as whatever new one we get will need replacement eventually, too. I've just never been one to trade in the essentially 'free' years of a depreciating asset (with minor inconveniences compared to new versions) to take on a whole bunch more debt.

There are far more pressing things in this city to be replaced or created than the arena.

[Manhattanboy]

Just build the goddam thing already.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The biggest thing for me with a new arena is that it isn't actually creating anything NEW - it's simply a replacement for what we already have.


Many people disagree, but I'd rather live out the full lifecycle of the Saddledome (another 10-15 yrs IMO) and use the money for projects that are actually NEW. In the meantime, implement a ticket tax to build a small kitty that can help close the negotiating gap between the parties.

The Saddledome is a perfectly capable, fully loaded 2004 Honda Odyssey without any pending maintenance needs beyond oil changes (we just replaced the tires, brakes, and timing belt after the flood). It's fully paid off and costs next to nothing to operate.

We want to trade it in for brand new F350. Insurance costs a lot more (ticket prices), gas costs a bit more (concessions). The vehicle seats fewer people, but it does let us go further off-road 2-3 times year when we go camping (so-called big concerts skipping us for Edmonton). Don't get me wrong, there are some great new features like a better stereo system and wireless phone charger, but there will also be some unanticipated drawbacks (maybe harder to park, etc. - people in the E=NG thread have talked about how their new building feels 'soul-less')

We've always known we would need a new car eventually, just as whatever new one we get will need replacement eventually, too. I've just never been one to trade in the essentially 'free' years of a depreciating asset (with minor inconveniences compared to new versions) to take on a whole bunch more debt.

There are far more pressing things in this city to be replaced or created than the arena.

10-15 years would probably stretch the arena's life well beyond what the NHL and the Flames' owners would be comfortable with.
But if you are OK with the risk they could move the team, then it's a valid opinion. And I'm not saying that to be hyperbolic - indeed it is about where folks want money spent. But with that has to come some awareness of the ramifications of that.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The biggest thing for me with a new arena is that it isn't actually creating anything NEW - it's simply a replacement for what we already have.

Many people disagree, but I'd rather live out the full lifecycle of the Saddledome (another 10-15 yrs IMO) and use the money for projects that are actually NEW. In the meantime, implement a ticket tax to build a small kitty that can help close the negotiating gap between the parties.

The Saddledome is a perfectly capable, fully loaded 2004 Honda Odyssey without any pending maintenance needs beyond oil changes (we just replaced the tires, brakes, and timing belt after the flood). It's fully paid off and costs next to nothing to operate.

We want to trade it in for brand new F350. Insurance costs a lot more (ticket prices), gas costs a bit more (concessions). The vehicle seats fewer people, but it does let us go further off-road 2-3 times year when we go camping (so-called big concerts skipping us for Edmonton). Don't get me wrong, there are some great new features like a better stereo system and wireless phone charger, but there will also be some unanticipated drawbacks (maybe harder to park, etc. - people in the E=NG thread have talked about how their new building feels 'soul-less')

We've always known we would need a new car eventually, just as whatever new one we get will need replacement eventually, too. I've just never been one to trade in the essentially 'free' years of a depreciating asset (with minor inconveniences compared to new versions) to take on a whole bunch more debt.

There are far more pressing things in this city to be replaced or created than the arena.

It all comes down to what CSEC is willing to pay for. The argument for the timing of construction changes when you have another party also investing in it. On the surface, CSEC's willingness to contribute should be highest now, and decrease as we get to the end of that life-cycle if that is how the city would view the replacement timeline importance as well. So there is a point where the city could potentially be putting themselves on the hook for more the longer they wait. So that would have to be taken into account with this line of thinking. Plus the looming trump card that the team could very well leave if nobody is willing to keep them here because the city doesn't operate the arena, the team does. What are the lease conditions and when it is it up? How much money will have to be spent keeping the Saddledome going for those 10-15 years to keep the arena operator?



Then there is the case for how the arena/event centre timeline matches with CMLC's vision for Victoria Park. Does waiting for the Saddledome to depreciate to the end of a more reasonable life cycle make sense if it also delays the development of the Victoria Park revitilization process? If it is considered a major driver of that vision, waiting 10-15 years has a significant negative effect on the other development for the area (leaving an empty parking lot at the heart of an entertainment district) which reduces the property taxes generated that fund the CRL.



Then there's the thinking on just hoe much integration with the BMO Centre or Green Line are they planning? How much does the cost go up to retrofit that kind of inegration in vs. building it at the same time? To get 10-15 more years out of the Dome are we just adding $10M, $20M, $100M to the eventual project? That would also have to be considered. Then to cap it all off you'd have to take into account what the inflation will look like in 10-15 years time in the construction industry.



So it's a bit more complicated of a formula for the city than just 'let's let this '04 Odyssey go a bit longer because it will cost the same to replace it later.'

[powderjunkie]

I'm fine with rolling the dice on the team moving, I think the odds are in our favour.

The points of integrating timing/planning with the rest of the area are good. It's important that the arena fits into those plans' timeline, as opposed to those plans fitting into the arena timeline.

IMO the city's offer is already too generous (though I'd live with it) - my argument is simply that it shouldn't get any better, and there is no urgency.

[iamca]

I have a way for the free enterprise system to help kick in the first ~$20 million dollars towards the new event center.

There are 19,289 seats in the Saddledome, so why not sell each seat.(STHs would have first dibs on their seat) as memorabilia from the Dome? $1k each and you're on your way...

Other stadium's/municipalities have done this and it's been very successful. I have a friend who has seat from the original Dallas Cowboys stadium in his basement as part of his home theater/game room. It came with a certificate of authenticity as well as the details on a plaque.

There are many items in the Dome that might otherwise end up in the landfill, so why not start with selling some of the items that are not going to be a part of the new events center?

You could also auction off some of the items that are more unique and one of a kind...

It doesn't impact the taxpayers and it's a minimal cost to setup and process the transactions.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by iamca

Other stadium's/municipalities have done this and it's been very successful. I have a friend who has seat from the original Dallas Cowboys stadium in his basement as part of his home theater/game room. It came with a certificate of authenticity as well as the details on a plaque.

He has a seat from the Cotton Bowl? That would be pretty sweet.

[bizaro86]

I have always wanted a jumbotron...

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by iamca

I have a way for the free enterprise system to help kick in the first ~$20 million dollars towards the new event center.

There are 19,289 seats in the Saddledome, so why not sell each seat.(STHs would have first dibs on their seat) as memorabilia from the Dome? $1k each and you're on your way...

Other stadium's/municipalities have done this and it's been very successful. I have a friend who has seat from the original Dallas Cowboys stadium in his basement as part of his home theater/game room. It came with a certificate of authenticity as well as the details on a plaque.

There are many items in the Dome that might otherwise end up in the landfill, so why not start with selling some of the items that are not going to be a part of the new events center?

You could also auction off some of the items that are more unique and one of a kind...

It doesn't impact the taxpayers and it's a minimal cost to setup and process the transactions.

Have you seen the seats? They look like they were made in Taiwan, good luck getting $10.00

[flambers]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'm fine with rolling the dice on the team moving, I think the odds are in our favour.

The points of integrating timing/planning with the rest of the area are good. It's important that the arena fits into those plans' timeline, as opposed to those plans fitting into the arena timeline.

IMO the city's offer is already too generous (though I'd live with it) - my argument is simply that it shouldn't get any better, and there is no urgency.

I guess that's your view, Flames are a key part of this city and it would be a massive mistake to let them leave.....

There absolutely is urgency

Both sides need to push forward and find a way to make a deal.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by iamca

I have a way for the free enterprise system to help kick in the first ~$20 million dollars towards the new event center.

There are 19,289 seats in the Saddledome, so why not sell each seat.(STHs would have first dibs on their seat) as memorabilia from the Dome? $1k each and you're on your way...

Other stadium's/municipalities have done this and it's been very successful. I have a friend who has seat from the original Dallas Cowboys stadium in his basement as part of his home theater/game room. It came with a certificate of authenticity as well as the details on a plaque.

There are many items in the Dome that might otherwise end up in the landfill, so why not start with selling some of the items that are not going to be a part of the new events center?

You could also auction off some of the items that are more unique and one of a kind...

It doesn't impact the taxpayers and it's a minimal cost to setup and process the transactions.

The Flames are not the Dallas Cowboys, not even close.

If they do a limited release of only club seats they might move a few but they're not making 20 million off the deal.

[RM14]

I wonder if fans would rather buy the original seats still in the second bowl (the blue ones), or would fans prefer the newer red ones?

When they replaced the lower bowl seats I was able to snag one of the old green ones for free. They were in a pile behind the dome heading for the landfill.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by RM14

I wonder if fans would rather buy the original seats still in the second bowl (the blue ones), or would fans prefer the newer red ones?

When they replaced the lower bowl seats I was able to snag one of the old green ones for free. They were in a pile behind the dome heading for the landfill.

$10 seems a little on the high side. That's probably made for $5 in China.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

$10 seems a little on the high side. That's probably made for $5 in China.

But years of beer farts? Priceless

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by flambers

I guess that's your view, Flames are a key part of this city and it would be a massive mistake to let them leave.....

There absolutely is urgency

Both sides need to push forward and find a way to make a deal.

CSEC sure has a strange way of demonstrating the urgency...so far they've brought forward a half-baked WV plan, and otherwise been pretty obstinate despite the city moving the ball forward for them.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by flambers

I guess that's your view, Flames are a key part of this city and it would be a massive mistake to let them leave.....

There absolutely is urgency

Both sides need to push forward and find a way to make a deal.

It is certainly in CSEC's best interests to have the fans and taxpayers believe a sense of urgency is required.

Does CSEC have a sense of urgency to get a new arena deal in Calgary? I really don't know. If they do, you have to respect their poker face.

How do bad deals get made? When one side is desperate for an agreement and the other isn't.

[browna]

I also think the mayor and some in Council are now looking for their legacy piece, now with the mayors initial hope of an Olympics DOA, as well as the dollars talked about in that process, now “free” to spend somewhere else.

Sure that legacy could include an Arts Common major reno, but really, it’s an arena event centre...so there is some urgency on that side too imo.

[iamca]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

He has a seat from the Cotton Bowl? That would be pretty sweet.

Texas Stadium that was built in Irving Texas in 1971 and the Cowboys played in during their Super Bowl years 1971, 1977, 1992, 1993, and 1995.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by iamca

I have a way for the free enterprise system to help kick in the first ~$20 million dollars towards the new event center.

There are 19,289 seats in the Saddledome, so why not sell each seat.(STHs would have first dibs on their seat) as memorabilia from the Dome? $1k each and you're on your way...

Other stadium's/municipalities have done this and it's been very successful. I have a friend who has seat from the original Dallas Cowboys stadium in his basement as part of his home theater/game room. It came with a certificate of authenticity as well as the details on a plaque.

There are many items in the Dome that might otherwise end up in the landfill, so why not start with selling some of the items that are not going to be a part of the new events center?

You could also auction off some of the items that are more unique and one of a kind...

It doesn't impact the taxpayers and it's a minimal cost to setup and process the transactions.

You think the Flames would just let that money be used a new arena vs lining their own pockets?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Wormius

You think the Flames would just let that money be used a new arena vs lining their own pockets?

I just think it's funny that he thinks that many people would pay $1000 for one of those seats.
maybe a couple thousand would pay $100 a pair.