[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[AndyM]

Eh? Why would that be a problem? He was their best blueliner during the regular season. Why would expectations change in the post-season?

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Both Jarnkrok and Toffoli trades turned out to be bad

But that’s what you pay when you want to go for it when you still have your best players.

Agreed, the price was fair market price for contenders desperate to get that final leg up on each other.

Assuming we had a playoff goalie and we were stacked with great D, and Gaudreau/Tkachuk were known playoff performers, then...maybe this would be a different conversation.

Instead, it's a bit like refinancing your house and putting the funds towards lotto tickets.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by AndyM

Eh? Why would that be a problem? He was their best blueliner during the regular season. Why would expectations change in the post-season?

Look up this year's playoff MVP and winner of basically every other reward, to see why Edmonton, us, most other teams never had a chance. Tampa, loaded with D, had a chance.

When Tanev is your best D in the playoffs you better believe that has an effect on expectations for post season success.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Look up this year's playoff MVP and winner of basically every other reward, to see why Edmonton, us, most other teams never had a chance. Tampa, loaded with D, had a chance.

When Tanev is your best D in the playoffs you better believe that has an effect on expectations for post season success.

And you think the 26th pick next draft is going to be a Makar.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And you think the 26th pick next draft is going to be a Makar.

The last time we did this in this range we gave up our chance to draft a young Toffoli. Again, for a 30 year old winger we did that.

If you're asking me whether giving up first rounders negatively impacts our future the answer is yes. Especially when players of this caliber are available for half this price or even free agent signing during the offseasom

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

The last time we did this in this range we gave up our chance to draft a young Toffoli. Again, for a 30 year old winger we did that.

If you're asking me whether giving up first rounders negatively impacts our future the answer is yes. Especially when players of this caliber are available for half this price or even free agent signing during the offseasom

No I’m asking you where the Makar is at 26 in this draft, because that’s what you are implying.

What trade of the 26th range pick are you talking about and what draft? These are kind of important details. Do you really covet the players projected in the 26 range? Over a prove .75 PPG player?

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No I’m asking you where the Makar is at 26 in this draft, because that’s what you are implying.

What trade of the 26th range pick are you talking about and what draft? These are kind of important details. Do you really covet the players projected in the 26 range? Over a prove .75 PPG player?

Hey there, please have another look at my posts and you'll see not only did I not say this, but I didn't imply it. What I said is we never had any chance in the playoffs (reference to Makar, compared to Tanev etc). I did not say that if our first round pick was available, we would then be immediately Stanley cup bound, nor did I imply this.

Case in point, Cale Makar. Generational player, best since Bobby Orr? Yes.
More valuable than McDavid? Yes.

Drafted first overall? no.
2nd? no
3rd? no.

Giving up draft picks is a poor strategy in almost all cases, and it's why you see the cup winners rarely do it.

With regards to exact picks etc on Toffoli, this is all freely available on the internet, as well as the trades the Flames made that year.

Any time the Flames have given up their first round pick you can go back and see regret in hindsight once that draft class is developed. Maybe the only exception was the acquisition of a young Hamilton.


Please don't take the very reasonable notion of keeping first round picks, and twist it into sounding unreasonable. You don't need a generational player for every first round pick for them to be of value. Sorry.

Look at how the cap is structured, for example. It is specifically structured to favor teams that develop prospects. So all the best teams do. That first round pick could become a star, but greater than 50 percent chance they at least are serviceable at the NHL level. At bare minimum market cap, allowing the team space for more expensive stars. No prospects, no cap room. That's how the cap is designed.

Younger players also are generally way more effective in the playoffs, and we're seeing a lot of that lately.

Bottom line do we really need to go on an expedition to determine whether first round picks help us?

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And you think the 26th pick next draft is going to be a Makar.

Only if it's one with at least 400 horses.

[CsInMyBlood]

Although having an underwhelming playoffs as a whole, Toffoli scored a goal in game 7 vs Dallas, which we all know was absolutely critical to the Flames making it to the second round.

Im not a huge fan of what he brought game in and game out but I cannot pretend that wasn't clutch.

[GioforPM]

Gee - did Keumper play a big role in the Avs win? Lekhonen? Toews? 1st and 2nd round picks traded for these guys.

In the last 20 years three 26OAs have made an impact in the NHL. Trading that level of pick is not a huge gamble.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Gee - did Keumper play a big role in the Avs win? Lekhonen? Toews? 1st and 2nd round picks traded for these guys.

In the last 20 years three 26OAs have made an impact in the NHL. Trading that level of pick is not a huge gamble.

Colorado spent the lowest first pick in the NHL on a goalie because they are structured to value goaltending and D the most, then build out from there. It's not like they spent it on an older winger.

Kuemper could have another 6-8 years on him, and most importantly, he is a proven tournament player that raises his level of play under pressure.

The Flames consider D/G last, and don't factor in playoff performance at all. Leading them to Toffoli.

If we were stacked with D and playoff performers and first in the NHL and the acquisition target were more appropriate then yeah maybe this would be a different conversation

[powderjunkie]

Where did you get your degree in revisionist history?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Where did you get your degree in revisionist history?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure if you're aware of how degrees work but such a distinction would imply experience with revisionists. Not being a revisionist.

So...yeah. I'm getting that experience here since the same people acting like Toffoli was taking us to the promised land on the first 3 pages are now like "serviceable contract, as I expected". Leaving out the fact that if we acquired a Toffoli in the off-season at his age it would be a 2nd rounder at most, or free.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Colorado spent the lowest first pick in the NHL on a goalie because they are structured to value goaltending and D the most, then build out from there. It's not like they spent it on an older winger.

Kuemper could have another 6-8 years on him, and most importantly, he is a proven tournament player that raises his level of play under pressure.

The Flames consider D/G last, and don't factor in playoff performance at all. Leading them to Toffoli.

If we were stacked with D and playoff performers and first in the NHL and the acquisition target were more appropriate then yeah maybe this would be a different conversation

LOL. You made a general proposition and when shown contrary examples you wish to say “they don’t count because…”.

Calgary already had a star goalie - second in Vezina voting, plus a star forward, a great top line, good defensive numbers overall, decent depth throughout and decided they’d shore up forward because of the Monahan injury. That’s almost identical to how most top teams add at the deadline.

TB paid a first for Barclay Goodrow. Two firsts for Brandon Hagel.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL. You made a general proposition and when shown contrary examples you wish to say “they don’t count because…”.

Calgary already had a star goalie - second in Vezina voting, plus a star forward, a great top line, good defensive numbers overall, decent depth throughout and decided they’d shore up forward because of the Monahan injury. That’s almost identical to how most top teams add at the deadline.

TB paid a first for Barclay Goodrow. Two firsts for Brandon Hagel.

You only read the parts that fit your narrative. I already said in several posts that it's different if you already are stacked with D, goalies, playoff performers.

You seem to think the Flames qualify here. I am sorry but that is simply delusional through any conventional means of evaluation.

Yes Tampa gave up a pick in 2020 for a 26 year old two way Center. Not a 30 year old winger.

You already know Brandon Hagel's age and how that is irrelevant.

Tampa had 9 picks in 2020 because even in the middle of their cup runs they were acquiring more prospects than they spent. Nothing you have brought forward is an exception. They are examples of winners valuing G, D, and play under pressure. They are examples of winners Aquiring picks.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by dino7c

reminds me of people trashing Markstrom last summer...hopefully with similar results

Also people wanting Andersson traded last summer

I wonder if these people are as reactive and knee-jerk with life decisions?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Hey there, please have another look at my posts and you'll see not only did I not say this, but I didn't imply it. What I said is we never had any chance in the playoffs (reference to Makar, compared to Tanev etc). I did not say that if our first round pick was available, we would then be immediately Stanley cup bound, nor did I imply this.

Case in point, Cale Makar. Generational player, best since Bobby Orr? Yes.
More valuable than McDavid? Yes.

Drafted first overall? no.
2nd? no
3rd? no.

Giving up draft picks is a poor strategy in almost all cases, and it's why you see the cup winners rarely do it.

With regards to exact picks etc on Toffoli, this is all freely available on the internet, as well as the trades the Flames made that year.

Any time the Flames have given up their first round pick you can go back and see regret in hindsight once that draft class is developed. Maybe the only exception was the acquisition of a young Hamilton.


Please don't take the very reasonable notion of keeping first round picks, and twist it into sounding unreasonable. You don't need a generational player for every first round pick for them to be of value. Sorry.

Look at how the cap is structured, for example. It is specifically structured to favor teams that develop prospects. So all the best teams do. That first round pick could become a star, but greater than 50 percent chance they at least are serviceable at the NHL level. At bare minimum market cap, allowing the team space for more expensive stars. No prospects, no cap room. That's how the cap is designed.

Younger players also are generally way more effective in the playoffs, and we're seeing a lot of that lately.

Bottom line do we really need to go on an expedition to determine whether first round picks help us?

Cup winning teams give up first round picks all the time... And usually for rentals. Calgary got a solid middle six with term.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by blankall

Cup winning teams give up first round picks all the time... And usually for rentals. Calgary got a solid middle six with term.

Almost never until after they are built.

If we thought Calgary had built a cup winmer then sure you can justify spending a first, but I have no idea how we would think this.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

It's illegal to rent senior citizens

He’s 30..

[blankall]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Almost never until after they are built.

If we thought Calgary had built a cup winmer then sure you can justify spending a first, but I have no idea how we would think this.

Calgary win the division and was standing toe to toe with the big teams in the regular season. Things didn't with out for them obviously, but division leaders regularly trade first round picks as you don't know what will put you over the top.


Your comment is 100% hindsight bias. Even then Calgary could still flip Toffoli this off season. Pretty good hedged bet.