Flames trade Toffoli to NJ for RFA rights to Sharangovich and 80th OA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman
We won't know what we've got in Wolf, or just how good Wallstedt or Askarov are until they've played in the bigs for a good while. If you look at the list of previous winners of the Baz Bastien Memorial Award (AHL Goalie of the Year), there is a heck of a lot of mediocrity when it comes to NHL projection- although Wolfie is the only one to win it back-to-back (LaBarbera won it twice). I still love Wolfie, though.
I don’t know about “mediocrity”. Depends on how you define that I guess. The vast majority of the list had legitimate NHL careers or are in the midst of one.
Logan Thompson
Kaapo Kahkonen
Nedeljkovic
Petr Budaj
Matt Murray
Jake Allen
Bernier
Schneider
Michael Leighton
Labarbera
Roloson
Ryan Miller
Martin Biron
Manny Legacy
Felix Potvin
Corey Hirsch
The above are the highlights. There were very few complete missed on the list, maybe a handful. I wouldn’t use the word mediocrity that’s for sure. Maybe there are no superstars because they don’t tend to play in the AHL long enough to win this award.
The 80th pick is the 80th pick, it doesn’t matter how the Flames ranked the guy. If the Flames reached for some one, does it make the pick less?
Anyway, Toffoli doesn’t have much value and the trade reflected that. That doesn’t mean the return may not turn out to be good.
You can assess it anyway you want.
But a fan that likes an outcome is certainly allowed to say hey we got two first round talents out of that trade if you see a reranking out the Yegor draft, and some draft lists that had Suniev higher.
Both are true.
One side enjoying themselves and adding some hope to the situation, the other trying hard to make sure said hope never appears.
But a fan that likes an outcome is certainly allowed to say hey we got two first round talents out of that trade if you see a reranking out the Yegor draft, and some draft lists that had Suniev higher.
Both are true.
One side enjoying themselves and adding some hope to the situation, the other trying hard to make sure said hope never appears.
Could you trade your two first round talents for two first rounders next year? Why not? I bet even the most positive posters would take two firsts in a trade for those two players.
People aren't trying to squash your hope, just temper your expectations. You can enjoy whatever you feel like, someone else's opinion shouldn't have an effect on it. So at this point you're just trying to convince other posters that your way of being a fan is better.
One can still be very excited about Wolf and still acknowledge there might be one or two better prospects. Doesn’t mean one is down on Wolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by heep223
I don’t know about “mediocrity”. Depends on how you define that I guess. The vast majority of the list had legitimate NHL careers or are in the midst of one.
Logan Thompson
Kaapo Kahkonen
Nedeljkovic
Petr Budaj
Matt Murray
Jake Allen
Bernier
Schneider
Michael Leighton
Labarbera
Roloson
Ryan Miller
Martin Biron
Manny Legacy
Felix Potvin
Corey Hirsch
The above are the highlights. There were very few complete missed on the list, maybe a handful. I wouldn’t use the word mediocrity that’s for sure. Maybe there are no superstars because they don’t tend to play in the AHL long enough to win this award.
You don’t consider Labarbera, Legace, or Hirsch to be mediocre NHL goaltenders? I think if Wolf were to have the career that those guys did, most on this board would be extremely disappointed. Nedejlkovich had a promising start to his career, but has fallen of a cliff. You left out JF Labbe, Frederic Chabot, Jim Carrey, Scott Langkow, Martin Brochu, Marc Lamothe, Dany Sabourin, Brad Theissen, Yann Danis, Niklas Svedberg, Troy Grosenick, Garrett Sparks, and almost every goalie who won it in the 80’s. Doesn’t matter anyway, as the point has been made that Wolf has far more accolades in his young career than most goalies to have played in the AHL.
Could you trade your two first round talents for two first rounders next year? Why not? I bet even the most positive posters would take two firsts in a trade for those two players.
People aren't trying to squash your hope, just temper your expectations. You can enjoy whatever you feel like, someone else's opinion shouldn't have an effect on it. So at this point you're just trying to convince other posters that your way of being a fan is better.
My hope is fine.
Having to talk down a positive opinion (wasn't even mine) at every turn is kind of a sad pattern.
Having to talk down a positive opinion (wasn't even mine) at every turn is kind of a sad pattern.
I think you're confusing the issue, both opinions are valid, so when one gets more vocal so does the other. I don't believe people are actively trying to make things miserable.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gvitaly For This Useful Post:
I think you're confusing the issue, both opinions are valid, so when one gets more vocal so does the other. I don't believe people are actively trying to make things miserable.
Sigh ...
Not confused at all.
Nobody is calling anything invalid ... I even called his opinion logical.
It's a fan site ... you would think some hope and joy would go unopposed. If someone wants to wander around and oppose any view that has even a smidge of hope and happiness in it I think it's fair to point out that they fall on that side of the spectrum pretty much every time.
Not sure about that last sentence. I do think it's possible that they're rain cloud people though and it's not intent.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bingo For This Useful Post:
But a fan that likes an outcome is certainly allowed to say hey we got two first round talents out of that trade if you see a reranking out the Yegor draft, and some draft lists that had Suniev higher.
Both are true.
One side enjoying themselves and adding some hope to the situation, the other trying hard to make sure said hope never appears.
I wasn’t commenting on hope. If one traded for a 3rd rounder and it turned out to be the next Johnny Gaudreau, is it good drafting or good trading?
The Following User Says Thank You to Flamesfan05 For This Useful Post:
I wasn’t commenting on hope. If one traded for a 3rd rounder and it turned out to be the next Johnny Gaudreau, is it good drafting or good trading?
You replied to a reply to someone else.
The original poster was assessing the value of the trade as an uptick because they got what some (and the team reportedly) feels is two 1st/2nd round assets out of a youngish player and a well used draft pick.
That is a perfectly valid opinion.
The need to tell said happy person they're wrong at every turn gets old.
I've personally never had an opinion on how to assess the value of the third round pick.
Just fending off the Schleprock crew for daring to suggest they may have an issue being negative.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bingo For This Useful Post:
The funny thing about negative people is they think they are being realists. When in actuality they are as delusional as the overly optimistic without any of the joy.
I do think that the return on Toffoli was both disappointing and really good.
That's the market. Lots of teams really want to make some moves, but nobody has the flexibility to do it. Teams that have it are dictating value, and are probably waiting for more prices to drop, or for other GMs to get really desperate and attach more value on sweeteners for cap-clearing moves. That's the environment.
So you take a step back and look at value received, and can quite easily arrive at the conclusion that this was a fairly good move. Flames got bigger, younger and faster, and have two shots at a good player. Lots to be optimistic about in Sharangovich, and he is likely to match Toffoli's career averages. Suniev has the chance to be a really good player down the road for the Flames. I like it over all.
In any other year, Lindholm would have probably returned a first and a prospect (at least that's my opinion). The market is what the market is, and the return reflected that. Flames made the most out of it, and I end up with a positive view of the trade overall. I am eager to see how Sharangovich fits in, and I am very eager to see how Suniev develops over the next few seasons as he has an incredibly attractive set of tools and physical attributes.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Calgary4LIfe For This Useful Post:
I do think that the return on Toffoli was both disappointing and really good.
That's the market. Lots of teams really want to make some moves, but nobody has the flexibility to do it. Teams that have it are dictating value, and are probably waiting for more prices to drop, or for other GMs to get really desperate and attach more value on sweeteners for cap-clearing moves. That's the environment.
So you take a step back and look at value received, and can quite easily arrive at the conclusion that this was a fairly good move. Flames got bigger, younger and faster, and have two shots at a good player. Lots to be optimistic about in Sharangovich, and he is likely to match Toffoli's career averages. Suniev has the chance to be a really good player down the road for the Flames. I like it over all.
In any other year, Lindholm would have probably returned a first and a prospect (at least that's my opinion). The market is what the market is, and the return reflected that. Flames made the most out of it, and I end up with a positive view of the trade overall. I am eager to see how Sharangovich fits in, and I am very eager to see how Suniev develops over the next few seasons as he has an incredibly attractive set of tools and physical attributes.
Ottawa got Tarasenko for money. New Jersey is going to pay almost the same amount of money to Toffoli, and we have an NHL player and a prospect in return. One of whom has already scored 20 in the NHL.
The only thing that disappoints me about the trade is that it does seem like Toffoli legitimately wanted to stay in Calgary and only asked to be moved wants it became apparent that an extension would not be happening. It just kind of sucks to have to trade a player that wants to stay.
I think the return was fair though.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
The Following User Says Thank You to FlamesAddiction For This Useful Post:
One can still be very excited about Wolf and still acknowledge there might be one or two better prospects. Doesn’t mean one is down on Wolf
Sure, but you specifically named Wallstedt and Askarov without backing up your claim on why you think they're better, after all I showed why I think Wolf is a better prospect.
Sure, but you specifically named Wallstedt and Askarov without backing up your claim on why you think they're better, after all I showed why I think Wolf is a better prospect.
I think you could at least debate it.
I stated my reason: physical attributes. They are the precise size that most great goalies in the nhl are.
That’s what they have over Wolf
Last edited by Jiri Hrdina; 07-29-2023 at 10:04 PM.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
I stated my reason: physical attributes. They are the precise size that most great goalies in the nhl are.
That’s what they have over Wolf
I would add to that the fact that they've already been dominant in men's leagues, before they turned 20 years old. Askarov is 6'4", and Wallstedt is 6'3". Both were rated ahead of Wolf in the most recent Prospects Issue by THN.
The Following User Says Thank You to Sandman For This Useful Post:
I stated my reason: physical attributes. They are the precise size that most great goalies in the nhl are.
That’s what they have over Wolf
Oh yes, the Gaudreau syndrome, way to small.
Seriously though, he's not 5'5 he's 6'0 tall, taller than Saros, a whole inch shorter than Shesterkin, Lundqvist and our last great goalie Kipper, Patrick Roy was 6'0 and Grant Fuhr was 5'10.
I'll take talent, style and cat like reflexes over an inch or two every day and twice on Sundays
Flames trade Toffoli to NJ for RFA rights to Sharangovich and 80th OA
