May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by Locke

What part of 'rolling back provincial salaries of teachers and nurses that are the highest in the country by a wide, wide, margin' wasnt 'coming up with a solution?

I'm not exactly sure what a wide margin is in your mind but after looking at the numbers for nurses it's not much over some other provinces. We are below Saskatchewan for the average wage. I'm not going to look at teachers salaries because I'm sure it's the same.

So no, I wouldn't consider that to be a solution.

On another note, wasn't the opposition parties initial public reaction to the carbon tax negative, yet once the oil companies deemed it good then they did as well? Is that an opposition party or a party that that is a corporate puppet?

[CaptainCrunch]

Huh, I think that the opposition parties are still oppossed to the Carbon Tax because of the way its being rolled out and executed.

[chemgear]

I assume Notley is just going to do a small press conference like before, say a few token words and shrug just like last time. Nenshi did a better job supporting Albertans last time as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tion-1.3470917

Conservative leaders in Alberta and Saskatchewan said Tuesday's decision by the Quebec government to seek an injunction against TransCanada to ensure the company's proposed Energy East pipeline complies with the province's environmental laws will further pit east versus west.

"As Albertans become increasingly worried about mounting job losses, these types of short-sighted political games will only increase regional tensions across Canada," Wildrose leader Brian Jean said in a statement.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Huh, I think that the opposition parties are still oppossed to the Carbon Tax because of the way its being rolled out and executed.

Once the oil execs gave the okay Brian Jean decided that it was a good idea too. For a new party that hasn't been in power in this province it seems like the biggest problem is the way they are rolling things out. Seems minor and something that will get better with time.

[rubecube]

Really all she can do is threaten to take it to the SCC if the provincial court grants the injunction, and that would fall to TC not Notley. And even then I think Quebec could invoke it's NWC.

[Weitz]

Well the Federals could have a backbone.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Well the Federals could have a backbone.

Why? Again, if the lower-level court grants the injunction, it's going to take an upper-level court to overturn it. The Federal government can lodge an appeal if they want to on the grounds that the pipeline is national and therefore the provincial court's decision is ultra vires, but it's still going to have to go through the appeals process.

EDIT: Offhand, does anyone know if the Harper Conservatives ever sent a reference case to the SCC regarding pipelines?

[Weitz]

My understanding is the rules are written in that inter-provincial pipelines are federally mandated. So this is Quebec over stepping its rights.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Weitz

My understanding is the rules are written in that inter-provincial pipelines are federally mandated. So this is Quebec over stepping its rights.

It totally is, but the Federal government can't exactly just step in and slap Quebec down if their provincial court grants the injunction (which I see as highly unlikely to happen in the first place) because the process doesn't work that way.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I find this to be an interesting position when the people who benefited the absolute most from good times would rather lay people off, take their tax money and leave the province or country, than "share the burden" of the poor times, and no one really says boo about it, and blames government policies for driving them away rather than pointing to their own personal greed.

Given the NDP government told these people to get out, you can't really be surprised.

I have no problem with public sector salaries and benefits seeing a roll-back, as long as private industry is willing to make similar sacrifices for the betterment of the area which has given them the resources and ability to build personal fortunes and multi-billion dollar businesses.

Yeah, I'm taking about a 12% haircut this year because of the economy. And I'm *lucky* because I still have a stable and safe job. Private industry is looking at mountains of red ink and adjusting. The government needs to as well.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why? Again, if the lower-level court grants the injunction, it's going to take an upper-level court to overturn it. The Federal government can lodge an appeal if they want to on the grounds that the pipeline is national and is therefore the the provincial court's decision is ultra vires, but it's still going to have to go through the appeals process.

EDIT: Offhand, does anyone know if the Harper Conservatives ever sent a reference case to the SCC regarding pipelines?

I doubt it. Quebec didn't suddenly become a hard line opponent until Trudeau came on board. Guess the province feels it can extort more money from the Liberals than the Conservatives. Hopefully Trudeau proves them wrong.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

I'm not exactly sure what a wide margin is in your mind but after looking at the numbers for nurses it's not much over some other provinces. We are below Saskatchewan for the average wage. I'm not going to look at teachers salaries because I'm sure it's the same.

So no, I wouldn't consider that to be a solution.

On another note, wasn't the opposition parties initial public reaction to the carbon tax negative, yet once the oil companies deemed it good then they did as well? Is that an opposition party or a party that that is a corporate puppet?

Sure, its not 'much' higher than 'some' other provinces (Sask). And yet it is 'much' higher than 'most' other provinces.

https://www.nursesunions.ca/sites/de...arison.e_0.pdf

Its not the total solution, but its a start. As I've said, and reiterated many times, the private sector cannot be expected to bare the burden alone in regards to wage decreases and job losses.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Given the NDP government told these people to get out, you can't really be surprised.

You'll have to refresh my memory. It doesn't surprise me. The greed some people display astonishes me, but doesn't surprise me.

Yeah, I'm taking about a 12% haircut this year because of the economy. And I'm *lucky* because I still have a stable and safe job. Private industry is looking at mountains of red ink and adjusting. The government needs to as well.

How about your bosses? Or do they only pay taxes in Ireland, where they built their 6th home for that sole purpose?

Taking down individual salaries of people, in either sector, is not going to do enough, or anything, to help the overall situation. In fact it hurts because it shrinks the tax base, which pays for these things. Health care, education, public services, etc all need to be streamlined. That doesn't necessarily mean individual salaries need to go up or down, it's that middle people need to be completely cut out (like what the private sector is doing), and processes made more efficient and effective. But in conjunction with that, the people making ridiculous dough and holding it can't just cut and leave taking their taxes with them because it got more expensive for them to be here. I mean, they can, but how come no one ever calls them out for being crappy citizens. They created jobs here, yes. They innovated and grew the wealth of this area overall, yes. They also exploited the resources here at huge personal gain. I personally don't think that gives them free reign to take their ball and go home without so much as a finger wave from anyone. They still made their riches off the backs of hard working people they are now leaving in the dust.

[Resolute 14]

^ I was referring to our minister of employment telling people to go move to BC until things improve.

In my case, my bosses took similar percentage hits. The bonus structure was suspended from top to bottom.

As to the rest, we agree that streamlining the public service is critically important. But like it or not, we're not going turn this bloated budget around until public sector salaries and benefits begin to align more closely with the private sector and/or other provinces. Problem is, I have no faith at all in Notley's ability or willingness to do that. She's just going to kick that can down the road and leave it as a grenade for her successor to deal with.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I doubt it. Quebec didn't suddenly become a hard line opponent until Trudeau came on board. Guess the province feels it can extort more money from the Liberals than the Conservatives. Hopefully Trudeau proves them wrong.

Yeah, but it's not like Quebec has been the only province to stamp their feet on the pipeline issue. Trudeau doesn't really have to anything on this one because TCP are likely to take it to the SCC on their own. I'm not going to give the CPC a major hard time for a lack of foresight on this particular issue, but I do think one of Harper's biggest flaws was his complete ineptitude in dealing with the judiciary.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

^ I was referring to our minister of employment telling people to go move to BC until things improve.

I believe that was more in reference to the people that have fallen around you, and not to the very few people who hold enough monetary power to actually have real impacts, positively or negatively, on their own.

I agree with the pensions/benefits being more in line with private sectors, and unfortunately agree that Notley will likely kick the can down the road, but so has everyone before her.

[Resolute 14]

It goes without saying that if Notley wants skilled labour to leave the province, she wants management types to go too.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sure, its not 'much' higher than 'some' other provinces (Sask). And yet it is 'much' higher than 'most' other provinces.

https://www.nursesunions.ca/sites/de...arison.e_0.pdf

Its not the total solution, but its a start. As I've said, and reiterated many times, the private sector cannot be expected to bare the burden alone in regards to wage decreases and job losses.

I didn't here the private sector rallying for big bonuses when times were good and the private sector was handing them out like candy.
The attraction to work in the public sector is the fact that it's steady employment and decent benefits but a lower wage (I am a trades worker and know people in both environments).

Cutting wages in the public sector is a horrible idea.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It goes without saying that if Notley wants skilled labour to leave the province, she wants management types to go too.

Well if you're going to attribute quotes to people that A) did not say it and B) extrapolate it to mean other things to fit what you want to criticize about them, I don't really know what we're talking about here.

Can I make the assumption that people who would lay of 20 workers rather than absorb that cost themselves, care not for those people or their families, and thus care not for children, and thus hate all children?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

I didn't here the private sector rallying for big bonuses when times were good and the private sector was handing them out like candy.
The attraction to work in the public sector is the fact that it's steady employment and decent benefits but a lower wage (I am a trades worker and know people in both environments).

Cutting wages in the public sector is a horrible idea.

That was the idea, but the steady employment is now iron-clad, you have to commit an intermediate felony to lose your job, the benefits have spiraled wildly out of control and the 'lower-wage' part is just flat-out untrue.

Cutting wages and benefits isnt a bad idea, its becoming such an issue that its very soon going to be critical.