Stabbing in Brentwood-5 Dead, 1 Arrested

[Dion]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

He was showing symptoms, or at least signs leading up to this, it is documented, you can't argue it. Now should those people known better and forced him to get help, I would say maybe, they won't face any criminal offense from inaction though

Unless the person is a threat to himself or others you can't force someone to get help.

The other problem is recognising the symptons. If person is not trained to know what the signs and symptoms are it's often missed.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Mr. Bates, I wanted to say that I think your posts are some of the best CP has to offer, and that I genuinely appreciate reading your insights.

Thanks!

He goes by Master, not Mr.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by heep223

He goes by Master, not Mr.

edit: thanks for the juvenile humor - the forum has been pretty serious lately

[The Yen Man]

Good points made by MBates. There's often science fiction media about dystopian societies where they use algorithms to pre-determine if someone may commit crimes in the future, and they lock them up before as a precautionary step. We as viewers watch and see this as an undesirable control, but this whole notion of forcing people who shows signs of mental issues into treatment against their will sound a bit like this type of society IMO.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

I don't think that it's wrong to have a feeling of anger that he will be released in 5-10 years back into society and be able to enjoy the rest of his life while these families and close friend's lives are shattered forever.

I think it's frustrating all around, I question why his parents didn't do more to help him out, if my kid was acting like that I would think I would have done more to get them to see someone, but, bad things happen to good people and it's not a just world

Degrood will never enjoy the rest of his life, barring incredible breakthroughs in fixing mental illnesses. And since the funding for mental health research is pathetic, these aren't likely to happen in his lifetime.

If I was forced to choose between being Degrood or being one of his victims, I would choose being one of the victims without hesitation. There are fates worse than death, and that level of schizophrenia is one of them.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Degrood will never enjoy the rest of his life, barring incredible breakthroughs in fixing mental illnesses. And since the funding for mental health research is pathetic, these aren't likely to happen in his lifetime.

If I was forced to choose between being Degrood or being one of his victims, I would choose being one of the victims without hesitation. There are fates worse than death, and that level of schizophrenia is one of them.

It's incredibly cruel what mental illness does to a person. It shows no mercy and discriminates against no one. Degroot never had choice in weather he got schizophrenia. When doctors help him come to grips that his illness caused him to kill 5 innocent people, he will have to live with that for the rest of his life. Frankly if it was me I doubt I could do that.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by T@T

Very disturbing the amount of people making excuses for this guy murdering 5 people, I don't care why he did it, I don't care what he was thinking when he slaughter these kids and ruined the lives of countless family's. He should grow old behind bars period.

Charles Manson was a bi-polar, paranoid schizophrenic, should he be out?

So one question then, and I want you to accept that anyone could have paranoid schizophrenia so "Well, I don't have it" or "If I did I wouldn't murder anyone" aren't acceptable answers. Really think this one through, honestly, I'd like to hear you true feelings on this.

Scenario: Replace Degrood with T@T or one of T@T's immediate family members.

Does your answer stay consistent? Please be honest, it's an easy question to throw away or lie about because you (hopefully) never have to face it. But if you're being 100% honest;

Your wife goes nuts and kills 5 people, it's tragic, it's unfathomable, your life will never be the same. Except one saving grace comes back from doctors and lawyers "Mr. T@T, your wife suffered a schizophrenic episode, she did not know what she was doing, she will not be charged and there is hope that one day she can be rehabilitated and you can have some semblance of a life back".

Do you honestly stay consistant on that one, T@T? And if not, what's the difference? Degrood is someone you don't know so a lack of empathy for him and his family is easy?

[jayswin]

I know a lot of you older guys love to throw out the too bad so sad, tough love stuff that reads out of the 20th century, but it's really important, imo, to take anything you're throwing out the tough stance on and replace "some ****ing guy I don't know" with you or your family members and revisit it from that perspective.

[Bagor]

Where are you arriving at the assumption that it's the older guys that are throwing out the too bad to sad, tough love line?
I'm curious because I was demographically guessing the opposite.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Does your answer stay consistent? Please be honest

Answer is yes, victims and the victims family's are the most important under any circumstance.

If I were the killer please take me out back and shoot me, if my brain ever got that "broken" I wouldn't want to live.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by T@T

Answer is yes, victims and the victims family's are the most important under any circumstance.



If I were the killer please take me out back and shoot me, if my brain ever got that "broken" I wouldn't want to live.

But you think a brain being that "broken" can go on to lead a happy life?

And what about your wife (if you have one)? Your parent? Sibling? You would also feel comfortable having them killed?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Where are you arriving at the assumption that it's the older guys that are throwing out the too bad to sad, tough love line?
I'm curious because I was demographically guessing the opposite.

Because ageism has always been perfectly acceptable on this forum.

And in the vast majority of cases, it is when there is absolutely zero evidence to apply it to whatever the case may be.

Blame "old white" people for everything is a common occurrence.

Myself, I don't really care as i am quite aware how false it is in most cases, but others have stopped even being a part of this community because of it.

As to the issue of degrood didnt know what he was doing and what if it was your family member?

The problem with that is this....when someone has shown they are capable of psychotic breaks that manufacture themselves to the level of destroying multiple lives of many others who have done nothing to deserve their fate....im sorry but that person still has to be dealt with in a way that they cannot ever possibly do it again. Particularly when it's them not taking the prescribed meds that allows them to break away from reality. Asking a mass murderer to police themselves is decidedly not what a justice system should be allowing.

I understand this is a multi-layered and extremely difficult issue to address. Maybe in the future there will be a way to monitor those who have these paranoid breaks from reality because of mental illness that will allow them to co-exist with the public with no risk to either side. Until that kind of thing exists though, it's most definatley in the public interest that those who demonstrate violent episodes/tendancies not be permitted to pose that threat against an unsuspecting population.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think it's important to realize that the vast majority of people that go to 'hospital' rather than jail (and trust me the hospital looks and functions in exactly the same way as a jail) will spend significantly longer locked up than they would if they went to jail as an ordinary criminal.

Maybe way after the topic has moved on but when I was in law school my crim professor commented on this. This was in Kingston and he had spent a tonne of time in the prisons there, he even took a sabbatical to work in them I believe. Anyways, he said that when someone is judged NCRMD that it is worse than a real conviction as the hospitals are a hell and there is no end point. When you are better you get out but that may be never. His point was that if you are "playing that card" you had better be damn sure about it and that it is not pleasant to be locked up in an institution.

[sun]

Originally Posted by Tw@T

Revenge would be the death penalty(which I am against) but sick in the head or not he needs to pay for this crime with his freedom. The family's should not have to worry that this guy gets out 5-10 years from now because his "meds" work or he's better now.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand

You don't see why your viewpoint is so hard to understand because you are incapable of seeing the point of view of one who disagrees with you. You assume they do not "understand" your pea-brained ramblings. We understand... we just think you are narrow-minded, wrong, and incapable of logical reason.

You do a terrible job of presenting your opinion and then get pissy when people lay the smack down.

You want to be taken seriously? You want people to "understand" your point of view? Try understanding theirs. Try making a point about religion without calling your opposing debaters "thumpers". That might be a good start.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Has Degrood actually been diagnosed with schizophrenia yet? There's a lot of stuff to wade through in this thread, I wasn't sure if that was official or if people are just assuming based off the plea and the stuff about vampires, werewolves, etc

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I know a lot of you older guys love to throw out the too bad so sad, tough love stuff that reads out of the 20th century, but it's really important, imo, to take anything your throwing out the tough stance on and replace "some ****ing guy I don't know" with you or your family members and revisit it from that perspective.

Come on man, quit throwing Age around like this, frankly it doesn't make you cool.

The bottom line is whether or not he is criminally responsible is the question, and the answer is going to be is he a threat to come back into society at any point.

The one side benefit I guess in terms of the not criminally responsible is that the Judge call still put him away on an unlimited sentence.

Reading this whole heart breaking story, its pretty clear that something was wrong and getting worse, but the question isn't whether he is wacked out crazy and how realistic the justification is, but did he realize what he was doing was wrong, that's the question that I believe that has to be answered in a case like this.

Just reading some of the testimony in the trial and the interviews with the police when he was caught, he realized that what he was doing wasn't right, but necessary, that's my two cents.

I don't know if sending him to prison is going to do anything to save him, it will probably provide more of a sense of justice and closure to the family of the victims.

The big fear for these families is probably if he's not found responsible and still sent away for treatment, and the family is going to be subjected to hearing about every application for release.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Come on man, quit throwing Age around like this, frankly it doesn't make you cool.

Apologies, not a fair generalization to the members of the board on my part, but it does tend to ring somewhat true in my experience. Just the nature of the progression of the human race. I guess I threw it out there in a snippy fashion.

but the question isn't whether he is wacked out crazy and how realistic the justification is, but did he realize what he was doing was wrong, that's the question that I believe that has to be answered in a case like this.

Just reading some of the testimony in the trial and the interviews with the police when he was caught, he realized that what he was doing wasn't right, but necessary, that's my two cents

Kind of, obviously whether he understands that what he did was wrong is important, but historically that kind of goes hand in hand with the actual important question; Whether he's criminally responsible or not, and they've all but confirmed he is NCR.

It is extremely uncommon for someone to commit a crime like this in psychosis and then agree with their actions or believe it was right.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MBates

Before Mr. DeGrood slaughtered 5 people he was 'normal'. He was exactly the same as all the rest of us. Successful student. Valued employee. Good friend. Beloved son. On second thought, maybe he was not just the same but better than many of us.

I guess in order to look at this in black and white and to guarantee our safety we need to preemptively imprison all people who fit in the category of "the next potential Matthew DeGrood."

Except...that's literally everybody on the planet who has not yet suffered a psychotic break.

Yep, and scarily enough some in this thread have suggested just this. Saying we need to go against people's rights and freedoms and just lock them up until they're deemed fit to re-enter society based on hunches. It's incredible what some people "want" in a free society sometimes, when bloodlust, revenge and a need for justice enter their mind.

They'll look at backwards countries and condemn them for horrible injustice towards citizens but then pick instances in Canada and go "our justice system is a joke because it follows the charter of rights and freedoms!".

[jayswin]

I understand this is a multi-layered and extremely difficult issue to address. Maybe in the future there will be a way to monitor those who have these paranoid breaks from reality because of mental illness that will allow them to co-exist with the public with no risk to either side. Until that kind of thing exists though, it's most definatley in the public interest that those who demonstrate violent episodes/tendancies not be permitted to pose that threat against an unsuspecting population

Huh? This can and does happen, we literally just had this with Vincent Lee, the greyhound bus killer. He was found not criminally responsible, spent years in hospital and was released back into society last year with the only exception to his freedom being that he is monitored for med consumption for the rest of his life.

This is exactly how these cases should go, it was the best case scenario in a horrible tragedy.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I understand this is a multi-layered and extremely difficult issue to address. Maybe in the future there will be a way to monitor those who have these paranoid breaks from reality because of mental illness that will allow them to co-exist with the public with no risk to either side. Until that kind of thing exists though, it's most definatley in the public interest that those who demonstrate violent episodes/tendancies not be permitted to pose that threat against an unsuspecting population.

To expand on a point jayswin said in an earlier post.....

Man who beheaded Greyhound bus passenger wins right to live on his own — with daily monitoring

WINNIPEG — A man who beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba has won the right to live on his own eventually.

A Criminal Code Review Board has approved a plan that would allow Vince Li to move out of the group home where he now lives.

Li — who has changed his name to Will Baker — killed Tim McLean during a bus trip along the TransCanada Highway near Portage la Prairie in July 2008.

He was found to be not criminally responsible for the murder because of a mental illness — schizophrenia.

The board reviews Baker’s file annually and has ruled he could move out on his own following an updated assessment report that would include conditions for living in the community.

Baker originally was kept in a secure wing at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, but the board has granted him increasing freedoms almost every year.

The request for more freedom came from Baker’s medical team, which said he has been a model patient and understands the need to continue to take anti-psychotic medication.Even living on his own, he would be subject to several conditions that would include daily monitoring, regular check-ins with mental health professionals and random drug tests

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...ive-on-his-own