The New American Politics thread

[ernie]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

...is a total lie...right around election time too. Now that we know that was a lie, it casts doubt on the whole "we had no idea" paradigm...the fall back explanation for stuff like this. Once again, the most sophisticated intelligence network on the planet has no idea what's going on even when they get requests for increased security from their own embassy in Libya. Sounds very familiar.

And then the stuff about running guns through Libya.

No it doesn't. This so called damning report (thus far only talked about on right wing sites) doesn't really indicate anything of the sort and relies on people who already wanted to connect the dots the way they have. They knew there was increased activity and have never denied that. Until proven otherwise there is absolutely no reason to believe the administration knew a terrorist attack was happening at that time and that place. Had that been known I don't believe there is an administration around that wouldn't evacuate well ahead of time. Maybe I'm wrong in the end in my belief but this report doesn't shed any different conclusion on if they knew an attack was coming.

Did they lie after? Sure. Again not surprising. At all. It wouldn't matter what administration was in power they would have lied or tip toed around things for a bit. Foreign affairs, espionage, and intelligence is a nasty business. Always has been and always will be. I'm constantly incredulous that when that part of government gets exposed a bit that people are shocked. As far as terrible things go this isn't that big.

[Nehkara]

Jeb Bush comes out strongly against gay marriage, essentially saying that gay couples cannot love, support, and raise a child.

Jeb Bush Says Same-Sex Couples Can’t Provide Loving Families, Believes in Legalizing Discrimination

“I don’t, but I’m not a lawyer, and clearly this has been accelerated at a warp pace,” Bush said when asked if he thought marriage was a Constitutional right.

“To imagine how we’re going to succeed in our country unless we have committed family life, a child-centered family system, is hard to imagine,” he continued. “Irrespective of the Supreme Court ruling, because they’re going to decide whatever they decide, and I don’t know what they’re going to do, we need to be stalwart supporters of traditional marriage.”

“If we want to create a right-to-rise society, where people, particularly children born in poverty, if we want to have them have a chance we should be—a core American value,” Bush said, “we have to restore committed, loving family life with a mom and a dad loving their children with their heart and soul.”

He also went on to say that “absolutely” businesses should have the right to discriminate against homosexuals based on religious beliefs.

[Azure]

Stalwart supporters of traditional marriage.

50% divorce rate, broken families, kids in foster homes, kids that turn to crime.....seems like a system worth fighting for.

Always funny when people start talking about the sanctity of marriage. "Gay marriage is WRONG!! But me being on my 6th wife is no problem."

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by Azure

Stalwart supporters of traditional marriage.

50% divorce rate, broken families, kids in foster homes, kids that turn to crime.....seems like a system worth fighting for.

Always funny when people start talking about the sanctity of marriage. "Gay marriage is WRONG!! But me being on my 6th wife is no problem."

A reddit user /u/scottmill lambasted Mr. Bush with the following comment: [NSFW for language]

NSFW!

Seeing as how JEB's wife was caught smuggling $19K worth of undeclared clothes through customs, and one of Jeb's sons broke into the ex-girlfriend he was stalking's room in the middle of the night, one of his sons was arrested for public intoxication and resisting arrest, and his daughter was caught doing crack and later broke her probation to score some prescription drugs, maybe JEB should shut the #### up about other people's families.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by ernie

Did they lie after? Sure. Again not surprising. At all. It wouldn't matter what administration was in power they would have lied or tip toed around things for a bit. Foreign affairs, espionage, and intelligence is a nasty business. Always has been and always will be. I'm constantly incredulous that when that part of government gets exposed a bit that people are shocked. As far as terrible things go this isn't that big.

I think it is a big deal, especially in light of the 2012 election. And in light of Hillary's "private" emails. If it wasn't a big deal then why did they lie about it? But it's also the fact that this is not just a one off event. It's policy. It happens all the time and the government banks on people thinking it isn't a big deal. Bush told you no one in his government could "envisage" planes flying into buildings.....except NORAD, Abel Danger, a dozen foreign governments, several inter governmental agencies, a bunch of traders working at international banks, and so on.

And wow is Jeb Bush ever terrible.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I'm starting to think Sanders.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I think it is a big deal, especially in light of the 2012 election. And in light of Hillary's "private" emails. If it wasn't a big deal then why did they lie about it? But it's also the fact that this is not just a one off event. It's policy. It happens all the time and the government banks on people thinking it isn't a big deal. Bush told you no one in his government could "envisage" planes flying into buildings.....except NORAD, Abel Danger, a dozen foreign governments, several inter governmental agencies, a bunch of traders working at international banks, and so on.

And wow is Jeb Bush ever terrible.

They (may have) lied about not knowing it was Al-Queda and various other aspects. At this time there is nothing that said they knew an attack was coming when it did and where it did. That may change of course but it seems somewhat doubtful given this report doesn't even really insinuate that was the case.

The whole world of foreign affairs, espionage, intelligence etc is so unbelievably full of gray. It isn't black and white and it likely isn't "lied" or "didn't lie". It'd be nice to know and think the world was that simple and in many case it is but when you get to these types of things lying can become a necessity to protect interests or someone may even decide to not go with John Smith's report but rather Jane Smith's report. Intricacies exist.

That said, I'm not particularly enamored with Hilary as president but that outcome would be a heck of a lot better than any GOP president IMO.

[White Out 403]

I find it difficult to envision the republicans winning the white house again until they stop attacking gay marriage rights initiatives. its a huge turn off to a huge portion of the population

[Burke Salad]

Wow, I thought Jeb was supposed to be the smart one of the family?

[Coach]

It really ticks me off that the US spends so much time, energy, money and air play on elections that are a year and half away. They've been doing since the last election.

Don't you have actual problems to worry about? Maybe focus on the election a couple months before it happens, not years?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I'm starting to think Sanders.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/sen-b...islamic-state/

PBS Interview of Bernie Sanders

[Nehkara]

Bernie Sanders is doing an AMA (Ask Me Anything) on Reddit right now:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comment...tic_candidate/

[Azure]

Been thinking Sanders a while now.

Don't think he has a chance, but his ideas are worth listening too.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well we've eliminated one possible Republican nominee..

A day after Josh Duggar apologized amid allegations that he molested several underage girls while he was a teenager, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee criticized “those who have enjoyed revealing this long ago sins.”

“Josh’s actions when he was an underage teen are as he described them himself, ‘inexcusable,’ but that doesn’t mean ‘unforgivable,’ ” Huckabee said in a statement posted on Facebook Friday. “He and his family dealt with it and were honest and open about it with the victims and the authorities. No purpose whatsoever is served by those who are now trying to discredit Josh or his family by sensationalizing the story.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/a...n-allegations/

I wonder if any other Republican nominees are insane enough to basically say child molestation is not a crime and is ok if you asked God for forgiveness. And seeing as every single Republican nominee has pandered to to the Duggars...this could get interesting.

[Senator Clay Davis]

More "family values"

The indictment of former House speaker J. Dennis Hastert was triggered by his alleged effort to hide payments of hush money to a male student he allegedly sexually molested decades ago, a federal law enforcement official said Friday.

The indictment asserts that the acts Hastert wanted to conceal date back to a time when he was a teacher and coach in Illinois before entering politics in the early 1980s, the official said. Authorities said the victim, who has spoken with law enforcement officials, was one of Hastert’s students.

Hastert, the longest-serving Republican speaker in House history, is not expected to face molestation charges because authorities don’t think they have enough evidence to bring a case against him.

A federal grand jury in Chicago on Thursday indicted the former speaker, 73, on charges that he violated banking laws in a bid to pay $3.5 million to an unnamed person to cover up “past misconduct.” The male victim is that person, the official said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...41432931298224

[ernie]

Yes the Duggar's were open and honest about it with the authorities....more than 3 years after he was caught or he disclosed it. 3 years happens to be the statute of limitations. Hmmm

They of course sent him to church therapy and the girls in the church had coincidentally bind their chests more so as not to tempt the devil or some such non-sense.

And quite frankly this isn't a 9 year old minor doing something stupid. He was 14/15 at the time. He knew darn well it was wrong (and likely why he waited until his victims were sleeping). The whole "it happened when he was a minor" stuff really doesn't cut it.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by ernie

Yes the Duggar's were open and honest about it with the authorities....more than 3 years after he was caught or he disclosed it. 3 years happens to be the statute of limitations. Hmmm

They of course sent him to church therapy and the girls in the church had coincidentally bind their chests more so as not to tempt the devil or some such non-sense.

And quite frankly this isn't a 9 year old minor doing something stupid. He was 14/15 at the time. He knew darn well it was wrong (and likely why he waited until his victims were sleeping). The whole "it happened when he was a minor" stuff really doesn't cut it.

Well, a 14/15 year old really is a minor, in fairness. And a 14/15 year old who sexually abuses children is likely to be (in my view) a victim of similar abuse. Not excusing anything, just pointing out that this story may actually be even not horrifying once you scratch the surface.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well, a 14/15 year old really is a minor, in fairness. And a 14/15 year old who sexually abuses children is likely to be (in my view) a victim of similar abuse. Not excusing anything, just pointing out that this story may actually be even not horrifying once you scratch the surface.

Oh I know he's a minor and minor's do do stupid things. This seems to go beyond being a minor type of excuse. To me anyways. But I can almost accept that on his part.

His parents and how this was treated and dealt with on the other hand....

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well, a 14/15 year old really is a minor, in fairness. And a 14/15 year old who sexually abuses children is likely to be (in my view) a victim of similar abuse. Not excusing anything, just pointing out that this story may actually be even not horrifying once you scratch the surface.

I think Josh Duggar is kind of awful person, given what he did in his childhood (had he just been "experimenting" with consenting girls his own age this is a non-story. He was fondling girls younger than him--including his sisters, possibly as young as five years old, while they slept) and then going around doing all he can to keep the LGBT community from having basic rights and freedoms.

But the parents are who really and truly disgust me in this whole process. They knew what happened, they knew what their son had done--what their son did to their very own daughters--and they just sent him to work camp for a summer and insisted that God Forgave Him and all was right.

He molested children, actually. God may have forgiven him, but there are legal repercussions as well, and he should have been made to deal with those, and the parents should've been made to deal with the consequences of hiding it. Meanwhile mama and papa Duggar are publicly spewing bigotry that homosexuals are pedophiles, trying to keep trans women from public spaces, and the best was Jim Bob saying that rape and incest should be capital crimes, worthy of the death penalty, all while covering up his son's actions.

Even now, the focus from the family has been on Poor Josh and how this is hurting Poor Josh and how Poor Josh knew he had to stop because it would ruin his life! No attention on the victims at all, probably no actual counseling for the victims outside of the church likely telling them they brought it upon themselves by not being modest enough or some similar disgusting victim-blame tactic.

I have zero sympathy for Josh or the parents. I feel awful for the rest of the kids. That whole cult is terrifying.

[driveway]

Michael Reagan, Ronald Reagan's son, a Conservative commentator and a survivor of sexual abuse himself had some great things to say about the support given to the Duggars from Conservatives.

http://www.cagle.com/2015/05/conserv...ians-miscount/

When the Duggar family’s oldest son admitted he had molested and fondled five little girls — including some of his own sisters — when he was 14, it was time for conservative Christians to hold Josh and the Duggar family accountable for their actions.
Most didn’t.
...
Republicans and conservatives should be asking the people who run the Family Research Council the same tough ethical questions.
If it turns out they knew about Josh’s past and were still willing to hire him because of his celebrity, the FRC’s credibility is finished. Everything it believes in and has fought for will be lost.This scandal was a good time to do more than just fire Josh Duggar from the FRC and put the TV show on hold. It was also an opportunity to hold Josh accountable for his actions. But that didn’t happen.
...
If you found out tomorrow that Barack Obama had molested his young nieces when he was 14, would you call that “a mistake” and say you were willing to forgive him?
What if teen-age Barack had been caught molesting, was reprimanded and was then caught molesting again a year later?