The NBA . . . . . gone and forgotten

[PeteLFan]

You clearly know #### all about sports, and have proven it in every thread you post in. Just leave.

[trackercowe]

^ You do of course realize the Lakers are only 2 years off back-to-back championships and three straight finals appearances, right? The last two years they lost out to the eventual Western Conference Finalists. So with the addition on Nash and replacing Bynum with Howard they are easily a better team than they were last season.

Sure Kobe and Nash are past their prime's, but Kobe is still a top 3 player in the league (in contention with Durant for second best). And Nash still has a lot to give with a winning team. Even at his age there are very few point guards better than him. The Lakers would be smart in trying to limit their minutes, and I think their bench is decent enough to allow this. Really the only team standing in their way will be OKC (especially if they get home court in the playoffs).

With Howard in the lineup the Lakers have two of the five best players in the game today (James, Durant, Bryant, Paul, Howard); even Miami can no longer say that with Wade taking a step back with his injuries.

PeteLFan is off base calling Kobe the best ever, but I think some might end up calling him the second best ever if he can at least equal Jordan with 6 titles. He will never pass Jordan though, Bryant would need more than just one MVP to do that (and more Finals MVP's).

In comparison you really can't even consider James at that level unless he wins many more titles. James will likely end up with better career overall numbers than Bryant, but even he must know stats and individual accolades alone will not put him in the top 5 of all time. Titles are really what separates the Jordan's and Johnson's from the pack; James isn't there yet (while Kobe is).

[D to the iddy]

Here's just my general personal issue with people calling Kobe the "second greatest player ever". Jordan was the best player on all 6 of his championship teams. Kobe was the best player on only 2 of his championship teams. If people want to go by rings, I always ask "was Big Shot Bob better than 99% of the league with his 7 rings with 3 teams?" I think Kobe needs at least another ring as the best player to be compared to Bird/Magic. It's all subjective but Kobe doesn't even crack my top 5 (Jordan then Bird, Magic, Wilt and Russell in any order).

As for the Dwight trade... on paper it makes them a huge powerhouse but I'm personally not sold until I see it. There are too many factors that can come into play (Nash's back, coexistence between Dwight and Kobe, etc.)

[Hockey_Ninja]

Kobe is the closest to Jordan we will most likely ever see but i really don't see any reason to compare them. Jordan is Jordan, Kobe is Kobe. Both of them are amazing players and their won't be another of either of them. Once Kobe retires it will be a sad day for the NBA.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Kobe isn't in the top 3 right now either (LeBron, Durant, Rose). If he wants another ring, he's going to have to accept deferring a lot more. Kobe needs to be around somewhere like 20 shots a game at most, but we all know Kobe is going to have a hard time giving up his touches. He still has dreams of catching Kareem for the all-time scoring record, and I think to him that will really help his case against Jordan as the GOAT (it won't). Kobe would be a much more effective player averaging 22 points a game and involving everyone else in the offense.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

Again if Dwight Howard can carry a group of scrubs to be a top defensive team, he's playing with the best player of all time now and world peace who both are great defenders. They skipped up last year and got shredded, but with Howard the scheme changes.

I understand you're an enormous Lakers homer, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

If you really think Kobe is better than Jordan, I'm not sure you should be questioning anyone's knowledge of sports.

[Hockey_Ninja]

PeteL is a pretty big Laker homer but that's his own opinion. There are some people out there who have watched both Jordan and Kobe play and think Kobe is better. Scottie Pippen, who won 6 titles with MJ, had the nerve to say he thought Lebron was a better player than Jordan.

[PeteLFan]

I loved Jordan has a child, as a man that understands sports now I think once Kobe gets 6 and 7 he will he will be the best ever.

[moon]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

I loved Jordan has a child, as a man that understands sports now I think once Kobe gets 6 and 7 he will he will be the best ever.

I am sure that has everything to do with you "understanding sports" and nothing to do with you being a huge Lakers homer.

KoMe is not the greatest Laker ever let alone the greatest player.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

I loved Jordan has a child, as a man that understands sports now I think once Kobe gets 6 and 7 he will he will be the best ever.

The problem is you don't understand just how good Jordan was because you were a child.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

PeteL is a pretty big Laker homer but that's his own opinion. There are some people out there who have watched both Jordan and Kobe play and think Kobe is better. Scottie Pippen, who won 6 titles with MJ, had the nerve to say he thought Lebron was a better player than Jordan.

Sure, that's his opinion and I have the right to feel his opinion is ridiculous.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Kobe isn't in the top 3 right now either (LeBron, Durant, Rose). If he wants another ring, he's going to have to accept deferring a lot more. Kobe needs to be around somewhere like 20 shots a game at most, but we all know Kobe is going to have a hard time giving up his touches. He still has dreams of catching Kareem for the all-time scoring record, and I think to him that will really help his case against Jordan as the GOAT (it won't). Kobe would be a much more effective player averaging 22 points a game and involving everyone else in the offense.

I disagree with you that Rose is #3. Based in large part on the fact that he seems to be too injury prone to become one of the truly elite players in the game. His MVP season was impressive no doubt, but one great season does not put him above Bryant yet. Meanwhile Bryant continues to prove himself at the age of 33.

There is a reason why most analysts expect Kobe to take the big shots if needed during the Olympics, and not LeBron or any of the other elite players playing in London. In 2008 surrounded by other stars he scored 14 points in the 4th against Spain, and led them to victory while being surrounded by stars.

This past year he finished 4th in MVP voting, only behind James, Durant, and Paul (barely). The same with 2011 where again he finished 4th close behind James and Howard.

Right now James is heads above the rest, then after that it's either Durant or Kobe for second place. And by that I mean best player TODAY. Obviously Rose, Paul, and Durant are going to be better players soon enough, just not today.

Also don't underestimate Kobe's leadership qualities. It is quite apparent that he is the leader in London, while guys like James and Durant are following his lead. Considering Bryant is a student of the game and has won everything in his career multiple times, it makes sense to go to him for advice.

[Hells Bells]

Jordan would likely have at least 7 rings, maybe 8 if he hadn't taken a break for two years. He was also the undisputed leader on each of those six championship teams, Kobe was not. Jordan also had a weaker supporting cast, his second option being Pippen, who was a great defender but never averaged over 20 points. Jordan never had the luxury of playing with someone as dominant as Shaq. Even guys like Grant, Kukoc & Rodman pale in comparison to Gasol, Odom, Artest, Fisher, Bynum etc...

Jordan never lost in the NBA finals and always came up huge when his team needed him the most. Kobe shot 6-24 in game #7 in 2010... just a horrible game for someone with aspirations of being considered the best all-time. No way the Bulls win a championship with Jordan playing like Kobe did that game. Jordan scored 63 points in a playoff game on the road against one of the best defences of all-time. Kobe has never had such a performance.

Jordan shot below 47% four times in career, once after taking two years off and two more times at the end of his career with the Wizards. Kobe has NEVER shot above 47% in his entire career! Jordan was also more durable and a better defender. Kobe is a very good defender as well but Jordan was better defensively against tougher competition and before the rule changes.

I just do not see how anyone can argue Kobe is a better player when an argument can be made that Bird and Magic were also better players than Kobe. Rings don`t tell the entire story or else Robert Horry would be considered a better player than Malone. Fact is, Kobe has won championships without having to carry the entire team on his back.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Kobe has no real leadership skills. Phil Jackson was the leader of those teams, as evidence from their disasterous one season without him. Kobe's reputation as a big shot guy has been proven to be vastly overstated many times. He makes a lot of big shots because he takes a lot of big shots. Having 100 makes is better than having 20, but if its 100/400 or 20/50, then one is better than the other, its just the volume doesn't match.

Kobe can't even be the best Laker ever, so there's no point in trying to proclaim him anywhere close to the best of all-time. Even if you take Derrick Rose out of the top 3, I'll take Chris Paul over Kobe too.

[trackercowe]

Wow, if you are actually crazy enough to think Kobe Bryant does not have any real leadership skills, then there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise. Maybe he was selfish early in his career, but that changed around 2004 when O'Neal and Jackson left. Also don't underestimate Jackson taking a shot at Bryant in his book.

Just google Kobe Brant leadership into google and you will find thousands of articles regarding his leadership on the bench and in the locker room. He is essentially another coach on the bench, and will be running the offense with Nash's help this season. The players probably go to him more often for support than they do Mike Brown. I could see Bryant being a coach some day if given a chance.

Jackson gets way too much credit for their success, losing O'Neal was the real reason the Lakers were not as successful during that 3-4 year period. Also just look at their roster during that time, it was far worse than most teams in the league. In 06 their main starters were Bryant, Odom, Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, and Kwame Brown; the only difference in 07 was the starpower of Luke Walton!

No one could get anything out of those bums. Any team with Kwame Brown and Luke Walton starting for them isn't going anywhere. At least they were able to make the playoffs with Kobe dragging them there.

Even during their two championship runs it was really just Bryant and Gasol running the team. Bynum was both inexperienced and oft injured to make a difference, and the rest just provided decent support (Fisher and Odom prominently). However, those teams do not matchup to the Showtime Lakers, or even many of the Bulls championship teams.

Jordan is the best ever, but after him Kobe has to be considered; although I do agree he needs 1-2 more titles to pad his resume.

It seems there is an anti-Lakers bias going around these days, just like with the Yankees. I can see why with how the Dwight Howard situation went down; although I don't see how Bryant gets dragged down with all of this. Sure he was a jerk early in his career, and still had ego issues, but all in all I find him to be one of the more professional players in the game. Many of the all-time greats in the NBA had similar ego issues (Jordan especially), so it's not really uncommon for players to think too highly of themselves.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

It seems there is an anti-Lakers bias going around these days, just like with the Yankees. I can see why with how the Dwight Howard situation went down; although I don't see how Bryant gets dragged down with all of this. Sure he was a jerk early in his career, and still had ego issues, but all in all I find him to be one of the more professional players in the game. Many of the all-time greats in the NBA had similar ego issues (Jordan especially), so it's not really uncommon for players to think too highly of themselves.

Not sure if you're speaking to me but that cannot be further from the truth. The Lakers were always my favorite team until the Raptors came along. I'm not saying Kobe isn't one of the greatest to play the game, he certainly is, but its unfair to say I'm anti-Lakers just because I think its laughable to say he's better than Jordan.

If anything, perhaps PeteL is just a little too pro-Lakers/Kobe IMO.

[Senator Clay Davis]

It seems there is an anti-Lakers bias going around these days, just like with the Yankees.

These days? How long have you been following the NBA? By my count the Lakers have been the most hated team for at least a decade, and it would be 3 decades in a row if they weren't so irrelavent in the 90's. LA is either the biggest, or right behind Miami as the biggest bandwagoning cities of them all, so most normal sports fans despise the fact cities where people only go when the team is successful get to enjoy any success. Like being a Cowboys or Yankees fan, it simply comes with the territory.

As to Kobe being a leader, it's about degrees. For how he used to be, I suppose he's a much better leader. But I could think of probably 30 better leaders currently in the NBA, and more than 100 ever. For how great a player he was, he's leadership skills simply do not match up well. He's an A as a player and a C+ as a leader.

[moon]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

It seems there is an anti-Lakers bias going around these days, just like with the Yankees. I can see why with how the Dwight Howard situation went down; although I don't see how Bryant gets dragged down with all of this. Sure he was a jerk early in his career, and still had ego issues, but all in all I find him to be one of the more professional players in the game. Many of the all-time greats in the NBA had similar ego issues (Jordan especially), so it's not really uncommon for players to think too highly of themselves.

I am not anti-Laker and respect what they did with Johnson-Kareem and even with Shaq, but I certainly am tired of the new breed of Laker fan and the overrating of the rapist by them and some in the media.

Swap out the Rapist KoMe and Cry baby Howard out with two repsectable human beings and I would have no problem with the Lakers.

I actually want them to win most of the time because despite how awful Laker fans are they are better than Boston fans and Lakers winning seems to piss Celtics fans off the most.

[D to the iddy]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

There is a reason why most analysts expect Kobe to take the big shots if needed during the Olympics, and not LeBron or any of the other elite players playing in London.

After watching the 4th quarter today, I can say that the ball was in LeBron's hand in order to take the big shots (his 3 over Gasol) and to make big plays. Also, I mused many times during the 4th that it looked like the USA froze Kobe out. I think I got up to 8 straight possessions that he didn't even touch the ball. Just my observations and nothing more.

Overall, I thought the Olympics were the USA's to lose and they didn't (but gave a little bit of a scare). I hope that more nations continue to get better (Canada especially) but considering the USA had numerous injured players sitting out, they're going to continue to dominate.

[PeteLFan]

Chris Paul was the difference he was the general out there. Kobe had a huge rebound and put back when the game was in doubt.