[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[dammage79]

I'm going to post this in another thread as well but props to the local media for knowing about Sven unhappiness for a while and not making anything about this publicly. Given all the hubub in T.O about their media the last day and a half I truly appreciate the tact and professionalism the Flames beat writers posses.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

This is the thing that bothers me. The Flames never let him sink or swim, they just refused to find out what he actually was or wasn't.

When the Canucks actually give him a chance to play I guess we will all see what kind of hockey player Sven Baertschi is.

I have the feeling this one is going to look bad for the Flames for a long time.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Even when Baertschi had the game where he had two primary assists, he barely got any ice time in the third period. He was one of the better Flames that game.

I think a lot of people need to stop believing that coaches don't pick favorites. Even the best coaches in the league prefer one player over another for a myriad of reasons beyond just their play on the ice.

Both these quotes are false.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...eason=20132014

Change the links from year to year. You will see vastly different TOI for Baertschi. For two straight years (2012-13 through the 2013-14 seasons) Baertschi played more than 4th line minutes. He also started off playing with Monahan and Hudler. He has played with a wide variety of players.

This past season is where Baertschi's TOI really took a hit. You can say it was due to favoritism, or perhaps Hartley favored other prospects who took his ice time like Jooris, Granlund, Gaudreau, etc.

Everyone throughout the lineup saw a reduction in their ice-time accordingly. Heck, even Glencross started getting demoted to the third line before his trade (which is why he waived his NMC). You want to be a Hartley favorite? You play hard, and you play the full length of the ice, and you do both of these things consistently.

I am dumbfounded how people still think Baertschi didn't get a fair shake. He was spoon-fed good minutes. All people remember is his '4th line time with scrubs'. The numbers clearly indicate he was playing 3rd line mostly in his time on the Flames, with lots of games over 15 minutes. Click on the link if you really feel Baertschi didn't get a fair look, and go through all the years. This past year's reduction on TOI is without a doubt a product of other prospects surpassing him. In the past, when Baertschi had a strong game, he would get 18+ minutes. He earned those minutes, and he got them. When he stopped earning them, he saw them reduced, and then got demoted. Sounds pretty damn fair to me. I guess I am just 'fooling myself' as Cisinmyblood states so vehemently.

Raymond, Setoguchi, Bollig, Glencross, Gaudreau, Jones, and many others have either been demoted to the AHL, scratched or have seen their ice-times reduced accordingly. I just can't come up with any logical reasoning as to how the Flames organization 'had it in' for Baertschi, and didn't give him a fair shake. IMO, I think he got undeserved minutes. Even this last call-up, most people who follow Adirondack felt there were other prospects more deserving of the call-up, and were surprised by it. Ferland was a much better player in training camp and pre-season, and got demoted before Baertschi.

I get it - people fell in love with Baertschi as he was finally a little bit of light. He brought a spark of hope, and everyone hung their hat on him, bought his jersey, and were counting their chickens before they hatched. Heck, I was one of them - I thought for SURE Sven was going to be a first line winger who would be thrilling us for a decade. Heck, he may even still become that player, but it is looking less and less likely. I just don't think there was much more to do to get Baertschi on track in his organization, and I am at least happy they managed to recoup a 2nd round pick rather than nothing down the road.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Both these quotes are false.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...eason=20132014

This past season is where Baertschi's TOI really took a hit. You can say it was due to favoritism, or perhaps Hartley favored other prospects who took his ice time like Jooris, Granlund, Gaudreau, etc.

This is exactly what I meant and I didn't mean it in a positive or negative way. Coaches pick players they really like, and at the same time, others they aren't fond of.

Also found this yesterday:

Money Puck @MoneyPuck_
Over the past 4 yrs, Baertschi has been the Flames 3rd most efficient point producer (TOI>200 min) http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC … h/t @Bryan_Nikkel

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is exactly what I meant and I didn't mean it in a positive or negative way. Coaches pick players they really like, and at the same time, others they aren't fond of.

Also found this yesterday:

Money Puck @MoneyPuck_
Over the past 4 yrs, Baertschi has been the Flames 3rd most efficient point producer (TOI>200 min) http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC … h/t @Bryan_Nikkel

And McGrattan has the best Corsi on the team...

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is exactly what I meant and I didn't mean it in a positive or negative way. Coaches pick players they really like, and at the same time, others they aren't fond of.

Also found this yesterday:

Money Puck @MoneyPuck_
Over the past 4 yrs, Baertschi has been the Flames 3rd most efficient point producer (TOI>200 min) http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC … h/t @Bryan_Nikkel

What does that chart prove? Serious question.
Going by that, there appears to be quite a few former Flames we should bring back.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

What does that chart prove? Serious question.
Going by that, there appears to be quite a few former Flames we should bring back.

The chart doesn't prove anything. No "advanced" stats are listed to simply "prove" something.

It's simply additional information.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

What does that chart prove? Serious question.
Going by that, there appears to be quite a few former Flames we should bring back.

What is suggests is that Baertschi is one of the more talented players we have had in terms of pure scoring - which is true. Problem is, the sample size is quite limited, which allows his five game junior recall and his seveon-game point streak at the end of the season a couple years ago to significantly skew the average. That masks his general ineffectiveness most of the rest of the time.

We can also point out, using that same limited sample size, that Baertschi was also among our worst forwards at driving possession:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC

[Hockey]

Hopefully this turns out the same way the Markus Naslund trade did for us.

[Table 5]

Personally, I thought the Flames mishandled Baerstchi last season. Burke's comments were the complete opposite of how you want to motivate a guy of Sven's disposition, and the way Hartley treated him in terms of his position in the lineup never seemed to make sense to me. Fair or not, a guy like Sven clearly needs to be showered in positivity to succeed. And when given the chance, he was showing some great chemistry with Monahan...but for some reason, the team didn't stick with it. He was instead demoted in the lineup, asked to play a different game, and eventually lost his confidence.

Personally, I think it was a mis-read of a prospect by the Flames management and coaching.

This year however, I put them blame at the feet of Baerstchi. He's looked listless the whole season. When he was given the chance in the NHL, he never seemed to take the opportunity (there was maybe one game this year where you saw flashes) to show what he can do. When he was in the AHL, he just didn't produce like you wanted a guy too.

That, is on Sven.

Whoever's fault it is in the end (and Im a believer that both parties have their share of blame), it was clear that if Sven succeeded, it wasn't going to be here. It's a shame it might have to be in Vancouver.

[Galakanokis]

Talked to a few suits here in Vancouver and in general they fell the risk of the 2nd was worth it get someone that they feel still has potential. They know he has some worts but they think they can work with him, hoping Green can get him built back up for next year. He also filled a hole being a prospect in a certain age group. Gaunce has fall flat so they needed a body that could potentially be NHL ready this year or next.

[flames_fan_down_under]

If anything this trade has reinvigorated my hatred for the Canucks.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Personally, I thought the Flames mishandled Baerstchi last season. Burke's comments were the complete opposite of how you want to motivate a guy of Sven's disposition, and the way Hartley treated him in terms of his position in the lineup never seemed to make sense to me. Fair or not, a guy like Sven clearly needs to be showered in positivity to succeed. And when given the chance, he was showing some great chemistry with Monahan...but for some reason, the team didn't stick with it. He was instead demoted in the lineup, asked to play a different game, and eventually lost his confidence.

Personally, I think it was a mis-read of a prospect by the Flames management and coaching.

This year however, I put them blame at the feet of Baerstchi. He's looked listless the whole season. When he was given the chance in the NHL, he never seemed to take the opportunity (there was maybe one game this year where you saw flashes) to show what he can do. When he was in the AHL, he just didn't produce like you wanted a guy too.

That, is on Sven.

Whoever's fault it is in the end (and Im a believer that both parties have their share of blame), it was clear that if Sven succeeded, it wasn't going to be here. It's a shame it might have to be in Vancouver.

Agreed, well put. He just didn't ever really seem like the best fit for this organization and clearly was passed on the depth chart. I understand Treliving says he got the best deal he could and I do believe that, but it's still not terrific news we used a first on a guy that didn't work out and now have a 2nd. Any way you spin that, even if it's the best decision today, isn't ideal. Time to move on.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

it's still not terrific news we used a first on a guy that didn't work out and now have a 2nd.

Actually, for me, it is terrific news. Not all 1st-round picks are going to work out; that's a fact of life. In the past, the Flames had a tendency to hold on far too long and get nothing for their failed prospects. Getting back a 2nd is a big improvement.

For an investor, one of the most important skills is knowing when to cut your losses. You don't hang onto a losing stock all the way to zero.

One thing I like about Treliving: He does not seem to be the kind of guy who gets emotionally attached to his own decisions. He signed Setoguchi, he waived Setoguchi and sent him down. Bad GMs double down on their mistakes. Treliving has a way to go before we can say he's a good GM, but by that standard, he is not a bad one.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Actually, for me, it is terrific news. Not all 1st-round picks are going to work out; that's a fact of life. In the past, the Flames had a tendency to hold on far too long and get nothing for their failed prospects. Getting back a 2nd is a big improvement.

For an investor, one of the most important skills is knowing when to cut your losses. You don't hang onto a losing stock all the way to zero.

One thing I like about Treliving: He does not seem to be the kind of guy who gets emotionally attached to his own decisions. He signed Setoguchi, he waived Setoguchi and sent him down. Bad GMs double down on their mistakes. Treliving has a way to go before we can say he's a good GM, but by that standard, he is not a bad one.

That's not really what I meant but I think we agree. It's terrific news that our team makes better asset decisions and I'd agree, but saying this scenario is terrific is like saying you're happy you only lost a little bit of money on your stock instead of all of it. At the end of the day, you lost money.

[Jay Random]

It's terrific that we finally have a GM who doesn't delay these decisions until it's too late. This is a big change for the better.

It's not terrific that Baertschi didn't work out, obviously.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

He was never put into a position to sink or swim.

Because this team isn't the Oilers. Hartley, I believe, puts his young players in a position to succeed by giving them more and more time on ice when they show they are ready for it.

[Fire in the disco]

As a big Baertschi supporter I'm disappointed all around. I agree with many others that he wasn't given the best of chances to suceed in calgary.

The way I see it, Burke was too hard on him, but also Feaster handed him the keys far too early. He was mishandled in calgary unfortunately. I do have a feeling this trade will burn us, although now that he's a Canuck I sincerely hope he hits waivers, or busts.

My 2 cents anyway

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is exactly what I meant and I didn't mean it in a positive or negative way. Coaches pick players they really like, and at the same time, others they aren't fond of because of how they play.

Also found this yesterday:

Money Puck @MoneyPuck_
Over the past 4 yrs, Baertschi has been the Flames 3rd most efficient point producer (TOI>200 min) http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC … h/t @Bryan_Nikkel

fyp

[theoforever]

So, to sum it up the Sven situation:

Feaster handed keys to the city, and overhyped the kid.
Burke disliked the kid from the start and created a rift with the kid by stupidly running to the media and criticizing the kid, something that never should have been done.
Apparently, Treliving did little to improve the situation.
Hartley picked on the kid for every mistake.

As for Sven, he developed entitlement and attitude issues.
To his credit, he tried to correct it, plus he improved his defensive play, only to be punished by Bob for every mistake.
So, he asked to be traded, who wouldn't.

So thanks to Burke we lost a good prospect and Van got a talented young player to haunt us for the next decade.

Flames organization completely mishandled Sven.
If I didn't know better, I would have thought we were talking about Oiler brain trust.

Good job.

[Tyler]

Wow, step away from the ledge. The guy hasn't even been able to crack the lineup of an NHL team for a full season yet