12-13-2013, 11:26 AM
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#1041
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Silicon Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamenspiel
I think most of the media comments are pre-Burke. I am sure Burke is in command now and he has been able to get talented people to work with him before. I see no change in that.
In terms of Calgary not being a standard model, its already been pointed out that Chicago is run by the president and I would have to say that Colorado also has a weak GM( the coach reports to the president, not the GM).
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Or how about Detriot? A few years ago, many here were all about the "team of advisors" like what Detriot was doing.
__________________
"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
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12-13-2013, 11:41 AM
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#1042
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Or how about Detriot? A few years ago, many here were all about the "team of advisors" like what Detriot was doing.
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Or St.Louis, which I think is the most pertinent example.
Davidson shielded that management group from ownership scrutiny, allowing guys like Jarmo Kekaleinen and Doug Armstrong (who had previous general manager experience as well), extremely good talent evaluators, to get their feet wet with other effective managers like Pleau around as a sounding board and buffer.
Davidson oversaw the transition of Pleau from GM to advisor and Armstrong to GM. I believe Burke sees himself in a similar role; as a kind of Steward of the franchise, hoping to bring in talented guys and prevent them from making mistakes that could shorten their tenure.
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12-13-2013, 12:10 PM
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#1043
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Our Jessica Fletcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
The major hockey media establishment have all commented on the involved nature of Flames ownership, from the Board of Governors, to the on ice product. Ken King signed Glencross to a contract on horseback while Feaster was the GM.
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The ROR offer debacle was a King/Edwards move.
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12-13-2013, 12:18 PM
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#1044
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Then you're not really listening.
Eric Duhatschek says, point blank, "Ken King basically runs hockey operations."
Bob Mackenzie says, point blank on national television, "The Flames have maybe the most involved ownership in the NHL."
Elliott Friedman specifically mentions, on Calgary Radio, "the president" and "ownership" involvement as being factors which would make Calgary's new GM position an unattractive destination for prospective general managers.
Here's some more from Friedman:
"I think the thing that, the toughest thing to grade feaster on [...] and I do think when the flames go through their interviews, the biggest question that the Candidates are going to have is what is the power structure of this organization and how much interference am I going to have? That is the biggest knock the flames have as an organization right now outside; that there are too many people who get to make decisions and it's very hard for a hockey guy to have control. "
http://pmd.fan960.com/audio_on_deman...-Interview.mp3
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Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?
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12-13-2013, 12:21 PM
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#1045
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SW Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Or St.Louis, which I think is the most pertinent example.
Davidson shielded that management group from ownership scrutiny, allowing guys like Jarmo Kekaleinen and Doug Armstrong (who had previous general manager experience as well), extremely good talent evaluators, to get their feet wet with other effective managers like Pleau around as a sounding board and buffer.
Davidson oversaw the transition of Pleau from GM to advisor and Armstrong to GM. I believe Burke sees himself in a similar role; as a kind of Steward of the franchise, hoping to bring in talented guys and prevent them from making mistakes that could shorten their tenure.
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Its actually interesting when you look at St.Louis' recent draft history. They've traded a ton of their top picks.
2006 - Erik Johnson - traded to Colorado for Shattenkirk/Stewart
2007 - Lars Eller - traded to Montreal for Halak,
Ian Cole - still in St.Louis as a depth forward
David Perron - traded to Edmonton for MPS
2008 - Pietrangelo - still there
2009 - David Rundblad - traded him the next year to Ottawa for a 1st round pick (Tarasenko)
They seem to be willing to evaluate their prospects and move them quickly if they don't think they'll pan out while they still have value. Something to keep in mind for Baertschi I suppose.
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12-13-2013, 12:22 PM
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#1046
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Franchise Player
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Two smallest teams in the west are last and 2nd last
you need some size upfront to win
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12-13-2013, 12:24 PM
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#1047
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moon
Based on his perception or facts he had from people in the know?
I certainly think there is a perception that the owners/King are meddling but haven't heard anyone say this is fact.
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These facts you are looking for will never happen, because nobody reports on that level of specific detail on meetings with GMs, owners, and the like. Not on the Flames, not on any other NHL team, not in any sport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner
Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?
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That's the model, sure. But the proof is in the pudding. I doubt anyone in the hockey fraternity will believe Flames ownership have stopped meddling until they see that it's stopped.
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12-13-2013, 12:28 PM
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#1048
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fonz
The ROR offer debacle was a King/Edwards move.
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Totally agree. I think that's the singular moment when the organization prioritized removing King from the hockey ops sphere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner
Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?
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The quotes from Booby Mac and Eric D are from before the Burke hire, the latest Friedman quote is from yesterday following the announcement from Burke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMoss
Its actually interesting when you look at St.Louis' recent draft history. They've traded a ton of their top picks.
2006 - Erik Johnson - traded to Colorado for Shattenkirk/Stewart
2007 - Lars Eller - traded to Montreal for Halak,
Ian Cole - still in St.Louis as a depth forward
David Perron - traded to Edmonton for MPS
2008 - Pietrangelo - still there
2009 - David Rundblad - traded him the next year to Ottawa for a 1st round pick (Tarasenko)
They seem to be willing to evaluate their prospects and move them quickly if they don't think they'll pan out while they still have value. Something to keep in mind for Baertschi I suppose.
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That's their most admirable characteristic, I think. Let proven talent evaluators evaluate talent, and guys who they think aren't going to cut the mustard, they move quickly and decisively to maximize their value. You don't wait for a prospect to bottom out before trading them.
Edit: And just look at the returns on those trades. Turn top picks into better depth. That Johnson/Shattenkirk trade is balancing out a bit more for Colorado now that Johnson is rounding out, but it's still a St. Louis win. Rundblad for Tarasenko? Robbery at this point in my opinion.
Last edited by Flash Walken; 12-13-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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12-13-2013, 12:30 PM
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#1049
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
That's their most admirable characteristic, I think. Let proven talent evaluators evaluate talent, and guys who they think aren't going to cut the mustard, they move quickly and decisively to maximize their value. You don't wait for a prospect to bottom out before trading them.
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Yep. The trick is to not worry about what fans, or fanboy owners, might feel about moving the prospect.
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12-13-2013, 12:35 PM
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#1050
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Lifetime Suspension
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Heard a rumor this morning (very good source) the ownership group and Ken King were not happy with Feaster at the draft, not the picks but his refusal to make a deal with boston for Seguin. I couldn't get the names involved except it wasn't Gaudreau as was rumored before.
Probably Sven and a first (at least)
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12-13-2013, 12:52 PM
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#1051
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Franchise Player
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Probably the only one, but I wouldn't trade Monahan and Baertschi for Seguin.
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12-13-2013, 01:04 PM
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#1052
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T@T
Heard a rumor this morning (very good source) the ownership group and Ken King were not happy with Feaster at the draft, not the picks but his refusal to make a deal with boston for Seguin. I couldn't get the names involved except it wasn't Gaudreau as was rumored before.
Probably Sven and a first (at least)
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If Sven and Klimchuck were enough, then yeah that was pretty bone headed.
I doubt it though.
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12-13-2013, 01:23 PM
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#1053
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lethbridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
These facts you are looking for will never happen, because nobody reports on that level of specific detail on meetings with GMs, owners, and the like. Not on the Flames, not on any other NHL team, not in any sport.
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We have heard about it before so not sure why now with more media access/information available we wouldn't hear about it.
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12-13-2013, 01:31 PM
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#1054
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Halifax
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Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.
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12-13-2013, 01:39 PM
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#1055
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $ven27
Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.
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I don't think I would of. Even if Bart turns into Hudler and Mono into prime years Langkow.
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12-13-2013, 01:43 PM
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#1056
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Halifax
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Seguin is a gamebreaker, it'd be hard but I would've made that move. However I'm also skeptical on whether Mono turns into a 1st liner.
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12-13-2013, 01:46 PM
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#1057
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flames Town
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20 year old Seguin for Baertschi and Monahan..
I would have done it.. Heck, i would have done Gaudreau+Monahan first though
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12-13-2013, 01:47 PM
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#1058
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Franchise Player
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Seguin wasn't a gamebreaker in his first season. Monahan currently has 7 fewer points than Seguin did in 74 games in his rookie season.
While Monahan probably won't score as much overall as Seguin, I think he'll be a better overall player pretty quickly here.
Add to that Baertschi and it's a very poor trade.
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12-13-2013, 01:48 PM
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#1059
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Scoring Winger
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: right behind you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $ven27
Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.
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I thought it was all three picks reported. Might be remembering wrong though.
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12-13-2013, 01:50 PM
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#1060
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
Yep. The trick is to not worry about what fans, or fanboy owners, might feel about moving the prospect.
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The other aspect though, is it's easier to deal away lars eller when you just picked Perron and Cole in the same draft and already have Patrick Berglund, TJ Oshie and Erik Johnson on the roster.
I think much of the latent fear for trading top prospects we see here on Calgary is the realization that there isn't anything else besides the one or two 6s or 7s the organization ever has at a given time.
Can't risk trading Dustin Boyd because then Kris Chucko or Greg Nemisz are the organization's best prospects.
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