[News] Feaster and Weisbrod relieved of duties. Burke will hire a new GM

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I think most of the media comments are pre-Burke. I am sure Burke is in command now and he has been able to get talented people to work with him before. I see no change in that.

In terms of Calgary not being a standard model, its already been pointed out that Chicago is run by the president and I would have to say that Colorado also has a weak GM( the coach reports to the president, not the GM).

Or how about Detriot? A few years ago, many here were all about the "team of advisors" like what Detriot was doing.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Or how about Detriot? A few years ago, many here were all about the "team of advisors" like what Detriot was doing.

Or St.Louis, which I think is the most pertinent example.

Davidson shielded that management group from ownership scrutiny, allowing guys like Jarmo Kekaleinen and Doug Armstrong (who had previous general manager experience as well), extremely good talent evaluators, to get their feet wet with other effective managers like Pleau around as a sounding board and buffer.

Davidson oversaw the transition of Pleau from GM to advisor and Armstrong to GM. I believe Burke sees himself in a similar role; as a kind of Steward of the franchise, hoping to bring in talented guys and prevent them from making mistakes that could shorten their tenure.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The major hockey media establishment have all commented on the involved nature of Flames ownership, from the Board of Governors, to the on ice product. Ken King signed Glencross to a contract on horseback while Feaster was the GM.

The ROR offer debacle was a King/Edwards move.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Then you're not really listening.

Eric Duhatschek says, point blank, "Ken King basically runs hockey operations."

Bob Mackenzie says, point blank on national television, "The Flames have maybe the most involved ownership in the NHL."

Elliott Friedman specifically mentions, on Calgary Radio, "the president" and "ownership" involvement as being factors which would make Calgary's new GM position an unattractive destination for prospective general managers.

Here's some more from Friedman:

"I think the thing that, the toughest thing to grade feaster on [...] and I do think when the flames go through their interviews, the biggest question that the Candidates are going to have is what is the power structure of this organization and how much interference am I going to have? That is the biggest knock the flames have as an organization right now outside; that there are too many people who get to make decisions and it's very hard for a hockey guy to have control. "
http://pmd.fan960.com/audio_on_deman...-Interview.mp3

Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Or St.Louis, which I think is the most pertinent example.

Davidson shielded that management group from ownership scrutiny, allowing guys like Jarmo Kekaleinen and Doug Armstrong (who had previous general manager experience as well), extremely good talent evaluators, to get their feet wet with other effective managers like Pleau around as a sounding board and buffer.

Davidson oversaw the transition of Pleau from GM to advisor and Armstrong to GM. I believe Burke sees himself in a similar role; as a kind of Steward of the franchise, hoping to bring in talented guys and prevent them from making mistakes that could shorten their tenure.

Its actually interesting when you look at St.Louis' recent draft history. They've traded a ton of their top picks.
2006 - Erik Johnson - traded to Colorado for Shattenkirk/Stewart
2007 - Lars Eller - traded to Montreal for Halak,
Ian Cole - still in St.Louis as a depth forward
David Perron - traded to Edmonton for MPS
2008 - Pietrangelo - still there
2009 - David Rundblad - traded him the next year to Ottawa for a 1st round pick (Tarasenko)


They seem to be willing to evaluate their prospects and move them quickly if they don't think they'll pan out while they still have value. Something to keep in mind for Baertschi I suppose.

[dino7c]

Two smallest teams in the west are last and 2nd last

you need some size upfront to win

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by moon

Based on his perception or facts he had from people in the know?

I certainly think there is a perception that the owners/King are meddling but haven't heard anyone say this is fact.

These facts you are looking for will never happen, because nobody reports on that level of specific detail on meetings with GMs, owners, and the like. Not on the Flames, not on any other NHL team, not in any sport.

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?

That's the model, sure. But the proof is in the pudding. I doubt anyone in the hockey fraternity will believe Flames ownership have stopped meddling until they see that it's stopped.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

The ROR offer debacle was a King/Edwards move.

Totally agree. I think that's the singular moment when the organization prioritized removing King from the hockey ops sphere.

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Are those quotes from after the Burke hire, or before? And if the perception is the same today re: the new GM, have people taken into account that Burke is a layer between the non-hockey folks and hockey ops?

The quotes from Booby Mac and Eric D are from before the Burke hire, the latest Friedman quote is from yesterday following the announcement from Burke.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Its actually interesting when you look at St.Louis' recent draft history. They've traded a ton of their top picks.
2006 - Erik Johnson - traded to Colorado for Shattenkirk/Stewart
2007 - Lars Eller - traded to Montreal for Halak,
Ian Cole - still in St.Louis as a depth forward
David Perron - traded to Edmonton for MPS
2008 - Pietrangelo - still there
2009 - David Rundblad - traded him the next year to Ottawa for a 1st round pick (Tarasenko)


They seem to be willing to evaluate their prospects and move them quickly if they don't think they'll pan out while they still have value. Something to keep in mind for Baertschi I suppose.

That's their most admirable characteristic, I think. Let proven talent evaluators evaluate talent, and guys who they think aren't going to cut the mustard, they move quickly and decisively to maximize their value. You don't wait for a prospect to bottom out before trading them.

Edit: And just look at the returns on those trades. Turn top picks into better depth. That Johnson/Shattenkirk trade is balancing out a bit more for Colorado now that Johnson is rounding out, but it's still a St. Louis win. Rundblad for Tarasenko? Robbery at this point in my opinion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That's their most admirable characteristic, I think. Let proven talent evaluators evaluate talent, and guys who they think aren't going to cut the mustard, they move quickly and decisively to maximize their value. You don't wait for a prospect to bottom out before trading them.

Yep. The trick is to not worry about what fans, or fanboy owners, might feel about moving the prospect.

[T@T]

Heard a rumor this morning (very good source) the ownership group and Ken King were not happy with Feaster at the draft, not the picks but his refusal to make a deal with boston for Seguin. I couldn't get the names involved except it wasn't Gaudreau as was rumored before.

Probably Sven and a first (at least)

[Ashasx]

Probably the only one, but I wouldn't trade Monahan and Baertschi for Seguin.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by T@T

Heard a rumor this morning (very good source) the ownership group and Ken King were not happy with Feaster at the draft, not the picks but his refusal to make a deal with boston for Seguin. I couldn't get the names involved except it wasn't Gaudreau as was rumored before.

Probably Sven and a first (at least)

If Sven and Klimchuck were enough, then yeah that was pretty bone headed.

I doubt it though.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

These facts you are looking for will never happen, because nobody reports on that level of specific detail on meetings with GMs, owners, and the like. Not on the Flames, not on any other NHL team, not in any sport.

We have heard about it before so not sure why now with more media access/information available we wouldn't hear about it.

[$ven27]

Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by $ven27

Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.

I don't think I would of. Even if Bart turns into Hudler and Mono into prime years Langkow.

[$ven27]

Seguin is a gamebreaker, it'd be hard but I would've made that move. However I'm also skeptical on whether Mono turns into a 1st liner.

[keenan87]

20 year old Seguin for Baertschi and Monahan..

I would have done it.. Heck, i would have done Gaudreau+Monahan first though

[Ashasx]

Seguin wasn't a gamebreaker in his first season. Monahan currently has 7 fewer points than Seguin did in 74 games in his rookie season.

While Monahan probably won't score as much overall as Seguin, I think he'll be a better overall player pretty quickly here.

Add to that Baertschi and it's a very poor trade.

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by $ven27

Most likely Sven and the Monahan 1st, probably should have taken it if that was the deal IMO.

I thought it was all three picks reported. Might be remembering wrong though.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yep. The trick is to not worry about what fans, or fanboy owners, might feel about moving the prospect.

The other aspect though, is it's easier to deal away lars eller when you just picked Perron and Cole in the same draft and already have Patrick Berglund, TJ Oshie and Erik Johnson on the roster.

I think much of the latent fear for trading top prospects we see here on Calgary is the realization that there isn't anything else besides the one or two 6s or 7s the organization ever has at a given time.

Can't risk trading Dustin Boyd because then Kris Chucko or Greg Nemisz are the organization's best prospects.