[Trade] Bouwmeester to Blues for conditional 2013 1st, Cundari and goaltender Reto Berra

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by you got PHANUEFED

Feaster is feeding us Calgarians a load of cow pie St.L was not high on this Berra kid what's so ever there is no way Feaster is the G.M at the draft. If I were the Flames scouts I'd be looking for a new team if my G.M said we were high on all these scrubs Feaster has acquired in these trades.

1st round picks, no other team has even acquired one and we have aquired 2

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

I'm fine with this trade.

1) People looking for a higher end prospect in the trade need to realize the relevant comparison is not whether we get Rattie (for example) instead of Cundari / Berra. Rather, it's Rattie versus a ~15th pick in this year's draft. Given what I've read about this year's draft, there are a significant number of players that project to be better than Rattie. If you want Rattie more than a mid-table place in this draft, you should be upset. But if you want Rattie more than Cundari / Berra, please realize that was never an option.

2) JBo's contract for next year was an anchor. Feaster got rid of it *and* picked up a couple of prospects. If JBo had a reasonable contract, then the throw-in prospects would have been better... but if JBO had a reasonable contract, he'd also be a better player than what he currently is. Which he isn't. Which brings me to...

3) People upset with the deal need to remind themselves that other teams watch Flames hockey games too! One of the best ways to look at these trades is to put yourself into the shoes of the other team and ask yourself if you would want JBo. If I was another GM, I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. And that's made even worse by the fact that he's not a rental, but a large contract for next year. So as far as I'm concerned, Feaster got a mid-round first and two players with soul for a soulless player that I would never consider trading for.


Just as an aside, if the Blues make the playoffs and we get a mid-table pick, I wouldn't mind trading away the pick we got from the Pens. Part of me worries that having that much invested into one draft is a bit of an unnecessary risk. If they can package it with another player for a higher pick this year, that's fine but imo unlikely. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind them moving down this year, taking whatever vig they can get, and end up with having another 2 picks in the first round of 2014.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I'm fine with this trade.

1) People looking for a higher end prospect in the trade need to realize the relevant comparison is not whether we get Rattie (for example) instead of Cundari / Berra. Rather, it's Rattie versus a ~15th pick in this year's draft. Given what I've read about this year's draft, there are a significant number of players that project to be better than Rattie. If you want Rattie more than a mid-table place in this draft, you should be upset. But if you want Rattie more than Cundari / Berra, please realize that was never an option.

Also a point here, Rattie is a guy who puts up tons of points, but may not project to the NHL in the same way. That pick is higher than where Petan would go this year, who is similar in his scoring to Rattie, and also in the fact that it is a concern about the game translating to pro. So a pick better than the Rattie equivalent, and still a possibility to take the Rattie equivalent at #27-30 with Pitts pick. Again, underwhelming compared to the random proposals we have all dreamed up, but still rather promising, perhaps more than just acquiring a good prospect with question marks.

[skudr248]

Roger Millions ‏@RogMillions 2m
#Flames and Berra according to report will officially announce 1 year deal next month.

[sa226]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but my guess is that the Flames insistence on a first lowered the value of the prospects. In both trades. Rattie or Cole or whoever probably were in play, but the pick would have been lower.

Probably in consultation with the amateur scouts, they placed high value on the high draft picks.

Similar thought process as Weisbrod encouraging the trading of our first last year, until he saw Jankowski

[Ned Braden]

If I understand the harshest critics of the trade, the argument is:

1)Bouwmeester was an elite defenseman, so good that a good team should be willing to trade premium prospects and a quality draft pick for the privilege of taking him on at a $6.7 million cap hit.

2)Bouwmeester will have so little impact on the Blues that, although they occupy the 8 seed with games in hand, there's a very good chance that they will fall behind Edmonton and Columbus and miss the playoffs. How could Feaster have accepted a conditional pick?

I...do not find this convincing. And the answer is that premise #1 just isn't true.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

I too am underwhelmed with the return, but no description I have seen anywhere of Cundari describes him as soft. In fact, most say he is a real pain in the butt to play against, and likes to get physical, despite his stature.

I think part of it is that we over-value our guys and under-value other players, especially those who we haven't heard of. This trade may look better when that first round pick is made and it is a guy the team is high on, or if the cap space generated allows the Flames to grab another asset during the cap compliance period.

There is no worse value for 6.7 M than Bouwmeester.




When PIETRANGELO and Shattenkirk come to get paid in their RFA year and point to them being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bouwmeester and that ROR is getting 6.5 then they will expect to be getting 6-7M on long term deals.

The Blues will regret this trade..... They will be offering Bouwmeester and a second to someone who will take his salary.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Blues will regret this trade..... They will be offering Bouwmeester and a second to someone who will take his salary.

Gunna go out on a limb and say that this never happens

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by neo45

Gunna go out on a limb and say that this never happens

I think playing under Ken Hitchcock will be good for Bouwmeester's game. Forwards play responsible and the overall tighter defensive game should help him round his game out while still getting the occasional green light to get into the rush but with forwards covering for him. In Calgary it seems that defenseman can pinch at any time without other players recognizing they need to fall back and cover.

[cannon7]

Why were Cundari and Barra even a part o this deal? Would've rather had a 2nd/3rd.

[AC]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Why were Cundari and Barra even a part o this deal? Would've rather had a 2nd/3rd.

I'm guessing either the Flames were interested in those players, or St. Louis wasn't interested in trading another draft pick...

[t0rrent98]

Originally Posted by mister__big

I said I was hoping for a return of a top prospect + NHL bottom-pairing d-man.

Berra is not exactly a top prospect. He may be a top goalie in the Swiss league but he has never played in North America and at his age, if he doesn't make it here within the next year or two then he pretty much never will.

Cundari is not a NHL d-man at the time of the trade.

Maybe you are easily satisfied and think Berra and Cundari are considered top prospect and NHL-ready, but many people sure don't think so.

Viktor Fasth says hello.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

Well actually the best case scenario is that the blues miss the playoffs this year, giving us another 4th round pick this season, then seeing the Blues crap the bed next year and we get their first round pick as a top 10 pick.

This year's draft is much deeper than next year's, so I'm hoping the Blues squeak into the playoffs and we get a 16th overall pick out of it.

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by cannon7

This year's draft is much deeper than next year's, so I'm hoping the Blues squeak into the playoffs and we get a 16th overall pick out of it.

Agreed.

But I'd prefer the 15th pick over the 16th.

[KOgear]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

Viktor Fasth says hello.

One difference is Fasth has put up some really nice stats throughout his pro career compared to Berra.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=5147

[azzarish]

I think it's a pretty decent deal if I'm honest. It seems like there is always an imaginary return most people want, when in reality it is never close to that at all.

I think it's good in 2 ways. One, we convinced St. Louis to take on the Bouwmeester's salary for the rest of the season. And 2, the first round pick.

Realistically, there aren't many teams out there looking for a top 4 defenseman with that high of a salary. That limits our options right off the bat. There's probably 10 or so to begin with. Then, which of those teams are ready to part with any of their top 3 prospects? Probably not many at all. In fact not many teams are willing to part with elite prospects period. So, the next thing you have to do is ask for a first rounder. I think the only way you get a team to part with a top 3 prospect is if you have a legitimate shot at winning the cup. Only a handful of teams have a real shot at winning it, thats why Boston were prepared to send us Alex Khoklachev in return for Iginla, who I believe is their second highest rated prospect after Subban.

To me, the 2 picks in the deal are just add-ons. And it's really Bouwmeester for a first round draft pick. If we're going to rebuild anyway I think it's equally as important to get a decent shot at a good draft pick, as getting a top 3 prospect from another organization. The urgency to be competitive right away isn't there anymore, so not getting a high prospect in return is acceptable for now in my honest opinion. If Cundari and Berra turn out to be blue chip players then it's an even better deal for us. Right now you simply can't say. No one can say with any real certainty if Bartschi is going to be an elite player. Right now, you just have to assume it's Bouwmeester for a first rounder and some potential.

A first round draft pick is really important, because the draft is really deep this year and the odds of finding a gem are a little bit higher.

[GreenLantern2814]

Ultimately, goaltending is an art not a science. There are any number of great goaltenders who came out of nowhere. Tim Thomas was in Europe at age 30. Hasek was a 9th round pick. Kipper was a 5th rounder.

Stockpiling NHL-ready goalie depth is the right move in a scenario where your established number 1 for the past decade is not coming back. It's irresponsible to hitch your wagon to any one guy, because none of them have done anything to earn that sort of trust.

So bring in a bunch of wildcards with potential, let them fight it out, and let the results speak for themselves. They aren't going to challenge for anything but another top pick next year anyway, so the time is right for a full fledged competition to take place. It's sort of one of the biggest reasons people like sports.

[StrykerSteve]

Cundari

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Yeah that really confuses me too. Is Feaster flying by the seat of his pants here?

Exactly. I don't think we overrated our assets at all, judging by what others got; makes me think that other GM's smell blood and know Feaster is ripe for the picking, and took advantage of it. Anyone remember that Peter Mahr comment 2 weeks ago (or so) that Feaster was going around asking fellow GM's for advice? Feaster goes to Boston and Pittsburgh and tells them they are short listed, it sounds desperate already. While I don't hate the trade, I simply don't think Feaster is able to get the best deal available and we should have another GM.

This was exactly how I felt yesterday. However, after a few more trades got resolved today (and keeping in mind GMs might be even a bit more desperate), I am not sure my post was really accurate. It seems GMs are placing a much larger emphasis on the 1st round pick this year than others - probably for two reasons:

1) Deep draft
2) Salary cap is going down, and the bonus structures on ELC are not part of the cap hit any longer (right?).

I am still not 'happy' at all with the returns, but perhaps I have misjudged them a bit.

My biggest measuring stick is what other analysts and fans have said. They have all been 'surprised' at the lack of return to the Flames, especially in this 'extreme seller's market'. I was expecting to see trades of the nature: "Wow, they gave up a lot, but they are really making a run this year!". Not "haha Flames got fleeced" from fans from all different teams, and analysts predicting much healthier returns. Maybe the market outside of a few isolated trades was not as good as expected.

At the moment, after judging today's trade activity, I am kind of 'neutral' on the trades. We didn't 'win' them, but probably didn't 'lose' them either. Underwhelmed still, but definitely not frustrated any longer. I think the rest of the movement from now until tomorrow afternoon will be more telling on the quality of the trades - but I am personally less frustrated at the moment, and I am happy that the Flames did end up getting the 1st rounders. Expected more, but definitely not terrible returns. I expected (foolishly perhaps) lopsided deadline returns you keep seeing yearly - maybe this year with the cap going down, you see a bit of a correction that way.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

I like the sounds of this from Cundari:

“As a player, I’m pretty aggressive,” said the Woodbridge, Ont. native. “I like to play an aggressive, in your face game. The last few years, I’ve really been working on my defensive game. I pride myself on being really good – really feisty– in the defensive zone.

“I can be a pretty nasty S.O.B. back there...And aside from the physical game, I love to jump up in the play.”

Listed at five-foot-10, 200 pounds, Cundari realizes people might jump to conclusions about his NHL potential due to dimensions.

“I don’t see myself as undersized,” he said. “I see it as being an advantage – as it being beneficial to me.

“Being a smaller guy means I’m more agile, more explosive. I’ll be fast. I’ll be up in the play. It really benefits my game. So for me, I’ve played with the `he’s too small” chip on my back my whole career.

“So to me, it means nothing when a guy says I’m too small. I feel like I can get the job done.”

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...708/story.html