[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Red John

It's actually really interesting seeing the evolution that is happening in Vancouver and how eerily similar it is to Sutter's years in Calgary.

They keep trading 2nds for warm bodies and on the radio had Jim Benning on. He kept talking about how instead of waiting 3-4 years for that draft pick to pan out they were setting the clock forward and getting the player sooner.

This is exactly the rationale Flames fans were using to justify Sutter trading 2nds and it ended up being pretty faulty.

The main difference here is Vancouver is trading those picks for Baertschi and Linden Vey (younger guys) whereas Sutter traded them for Marcus Nilson and Rene Bourque.

What was interesting is that Benning never mentioned anything about Baertschi clearing waivers next year and the guys on the radio didn't even know about it until a caller brought it up.

Talk about not doing your homework. Baertschi basically has one shot at making the canucks top-6 out of camp next year or the team threw a 2nd away for nothing. Given his body of work, Baertschi's odds of succeeding are probably equal to or lower than the odds the Flames procure a NHL player out of the pick (1 in 3).

Pretty great trade for the Flames when you look at it that way.

The Canucks arnt going to make any comment about Flames player development at all, and any comment about Sven has the danger of becoming a judgement of the Flames and they ain't going there.

They will be fully aware of his waiver issues, I suspect Benning figures if worse comes to worse you showcase him with the Sedins and trade him, the Sedins have a history of being able to polish up a turd pretty good.

I think the Nucks figure that the combination of it being Svens first trade plus they have his old coach to get his confidence back up makes this a slightly better bet than these reclamations usually are. I'm still not sure it's a great trade from their point of view but I can see the logic.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

No need to oversimplify it. Baertschi could have been handled better from the get-go.

In what way?

Do you honestly think he was miss-handled by the team and coaching staff? I am not privy to the inner workings of the team/coaching staff so I can't say. From the outside it looks like he was given every chance to succeed.

[DoubleK]

My $0.02...

It is conceivable that Baertschi was not going to be on the opening day roster for 2015-16.

To be fair to both parties this was the best possible outcome. The Flames recycle a 1st round draft pick into a 2nd, when there was a strong possibility of zero return in the near future. Sven gets a chance to prove he is an NHL caliber player with a different organization.

[dino7c]

Flames already have a "1st round pick" that is actually playing on the team that they paid a 4th rounder for

You win some you lose some but the key is knowing when to cut your losses

[Coach]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames already have a "1st round pick" that is actually playing on the team that they paid a 4th rounder for

You win some you lose some but the key is knowing when to cut your losses

They have two of those actually.

One is a defenseman.

[Phil Russell]

Sven may turn the corner in Vancouver and become a player. But it wasn't going to happen here--he got passed on the depth chart and that development was a positive one for the organization, not a negative. For the role he plays, there is no longer room for him in the organization. Sven realized that and asked for a trade, the Flames realized that and traded him. Sven's trade is a product of the team's success in developing several players, more than its failure at developing one.

I liked Sven too. He was our first indication that a brighter future for the team awaited. But, it didn't work out, in large part because others grabbed his spot and the Flames salvaged good value for him. Good luck Sven--I hope you get moved again, out east, so I can cheer for your success.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

On a team with offensive styles as varied as Hudler, Johnny, Monahan, Backlund,Jones, Colborne, Bouma and Raymond (and Glencross), what was the Flames style that so baffled Sven and didn't match his game?

To be honest, I don't know. I know that many posters said they liked Sven with Money, but I never could pick out anything unique about it that seemed to make it dangerous or effective. It was almost like watching drills (Just my opinion). And yet it seemed like it was the best line he was on, but didn't seem natural?

Early in the year (Preseason game I went to), I swear it looked like he was looking everywhere on the ice for a place to be and frustration was all over his face. Lots of hesitation and slow decision making. This diminished as the year went on though. I liked the last game he suited up for the big club and he seemed the most relaxed I've ever seen him all year. I think I read a comment on HF where they said Barts might be a player more for a cycle game, but I don't know if that's true (but started the idea of a style comparison).

EDIT: I am not assuming the Flames do not cycle the puck.

That being said, I haven't paid as much attention to Barts as most of the other players. I'm not trying to say anyone else is wrong... consider me just talking out loud.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

On a team with offensive styles as varied as Hudler, Johnny, Monahan, Backlund,Jones, Colborne, Bouma and Raymond (and Glencross), what was the Flames style that so baffled Sven and didn't match his game?

Ludicrous speed.

[GioforPM]

Fair enough, DoubleF, just thought you had a theory.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Ludicrous speed.

A lot has been made here about the work that the Nucks coaching staff have done with Uticca to align the two teams playing styles, in sharp contrast with Tort's who apparently never talked to anyone at the farm at all during his whole stay at Vancouver (which is astoundingly stupid really).

If the kid can turn it around there's no doubt Uttica/Vancouver is his best shot.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

4 shifts is more than he usually got on the third. That's my point. He was played until they needed to tighten up defensively.

10 minutes of ice time is a 6th of the game. It's just around half of a first line guy, and about 75% of a second line guy. Sven was not earning more ice time.

I can easily imagine what would have happened with more ice time because I saw what happened with what he got. Multiply that result by the additional minutes. I also saw what Jooris and Gaudreau and Granlund did with the same amount of time to start with.

Sven was put in a position to sink or swim and he sank. You can blame the coaches and management all you want, but a player's success is usually based on the player.

So are you telling me that 10 mins of ice time is a good amount of time to show anything? Laughable.

Show any player that produces anything with 10 mins of ice. Good luck with that. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Sven averaged 9:12.

You say that Jooris, Granlund and Gaudreau also started with the same amount of ice? Once again you are making shiz up. Do you not know that you can easily look up these stats?

Jooris first game: 15:29
Granlund first game: 17:57
Johnny first game: 16:04

All those are more than Sven ever got.

I guess we will see if/when the Canucks give him more ice time what he does with it. Just baffles me that they traded him without finding out. He was never put into a position to sink or swim.

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What if the second round pick turns into a superstar?

Unexpected Jackpot. Let's hope!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So are you telling me that 10 mins of ice time is a good amount of time to show anything? Laughable.

Show any player that produces anything with 10 mins of ice. Good luck with that. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Sven averaged 9:12.

You say that Jooris, Granlund and Gaudreau also started with the same amount of ice? Once again you are making shiz up. Do you not know that you can easily look up these stats?

Jooris first game: 15:29
Granlund first game: 17:57
Johnny first game: 16:04

All those are more than Sven ever got.

I guess we will see if/when the Canucks give him more ice time what he does with it. Just baffles me that they traded him without finding out. He was never put into a position to sink or swim.

You and others continue to outright ignore the fact that Baertschi never really established himself as a top player at the AHL level. Granlund is pretty much there. Jooris seemed to just skip right past that step, as of course did Gaudreau.

I will repeat. Baertschi has not done anything to separate himself from his peers. He needed to do that in order to get more attention from the NHL coaches and management.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So are you telling me that 10 mins of ice time is a good amount of time to show anything? Laughable.

Show any player that produces anything with 10 mins of ice. Good luck with that. I can't wait to see what you come up with. Sven averaged 9:12.

You say that Jooris, Granlund and Gaudreau also started with the same amount of ice? Once again you are making shiz up. Do you not know that you can easily look up these stats?

Jooris first game: 15:29
Granlund first game: 17:57
Johnny first game: 16:04

All those are more than Sven ever got.

I guess we will see if/when the Canucks give him more ice time what he does with it. Just baffles me that they traded him without finding out. He was never put into a position to sink or swim.

in 2013-2014 Sven played 26 games and averaged 14:06 a game. His ice-time went down for a reason, he was outplayed by other players in the line-up. He just wasn't a good enough player to warrant anymore minutes then what he was given. And that's not just by glancing at his stats, thats by watching him play.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Just baffles me that they traded him without finding out. He was never put into a position to sink or swim.

You keep saying this, but I don't agree. Every single shift he took he had a chance to show what he could do. He didn't need to be on the 1st line or get a lot of PP time to show some hustle, to be creative, to force the team to give him more ice time or move him up a line or two.

Not sure why the coaches or organization deserves such criticism when the player himself never forced their hands. Other players have, why couldn't he?

[GioforPM]

Jooris' 3rd and 4th games were under 10 and then he was scratched. When he came back he performed. Granlund wasn't even given any minutes at the beginning. He was a healthy scratch. But when he got in, he produced immediately and earned lots of time that game. Then his ice time steadily dropped.

Johnny was given a shot early and didn't perform. His time dropped each game and then he was scratched. When he came back we all know what happened. And his ice time that comeback game was only 12 minutes.

If Sven got limited minutes then he should have done something with them to force more out of Hartley, which we all know he will give, if they are earned (and take away if they are not).

Based on your argument, the Flames screwed Devon Setoguchi by playing him on the 4th line with limited ice time and shifts. Setoguchi has more of a track record to say he deserved time based on his already demonstrated skill set.

[Gaudfather]

Anyone see the movie Whiplash (for which J.K. Simmons won the Oscar for best Supporting Actor). http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/whiplash-2014 Highly recommend this movie btw.

One of Mr. Fletcher's best lines in the movie goes something like "the two most damaging words in the English language are good job".

The reason I bring this up is that saying reminded me of Sven - he seemed to have a hard time handling real criticism because he had heard "good job" so much before the Burkie/Treliving/Hartley era.

[CsInMyBlood]

Well its obvious some of you think Sven got more than a fair shot with the Flames.

I totally disagree.

Best part of all this is I guess we will see fairly soon what he can do when/if he gets more ice time with the Canucks.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Well its obvious some of you think Sven got more than a fair shot with the Flames.

I totally disagree.

Best part of all this is I guess we will see fairly soon what he can do when/if he gets more ice time with the Canucks.

Did Jooris get a fair shot in your estimation?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

Anytime you trade a Mid First Rounder whom at least showed some 'promise' in the NHL, for a mid Second Rounder you lose.

But all excuses removed leaving YYC, Sven is going to have to prove his mishandling and produce. If he doesn't, this goes back on the flames drafting dept. ala. Feaster, Wesibrod, Button and yet another questionable / bad first round selection in Calgary's history.

I'm not sure it can be that simple. People are now going to look to see what Sven does to either justify the Flames move or to show that they mishandled Sven. But we'll never really know. So many factors could go into. Truth of the matter is, the Flames development system could be just fine, the way Hartley handles players could be just find, and Sven's ability to be a top 6 forward in this league might be there as well, and his attitude might be ok as well. I'm not saying I believe all of those statements, but they actually could be all true and it still not have worked out in Calgary for Sven.

Fact is, sometimes, there also needs to simply be a fit and maybe the Flames development style and Sven just aren't a fit. You have to hope that a development style of a team is flexible enough to tailor to individual prospects needs to ensure best results, but at some point, sometimes there just simply isn't a cultural fit, and a good player, as well as a good team may just have to part ways in order for both to get best value. It's no different than other things in life from our regular jobs to relationships.

I personally believe here (without full facts obviously) that Sven was having a tough time "competing" to be an NHL player. For whatever reason, he thought he'd "made it" after his first call up (combination maybe of his fault and management at the times fault), and when he was required the following season to "prove he was a regular NHL player" something he thought he already did, he mentally didn't deal with it well (this part is his fault). That, has spiralled to the point where for Sven, he was never going to get over it, never overcome the fact he thought he'd been wronged by the Flames, and his only option was to request a change of scenery. Don't get me wrong, that in it's self to me suggests a lack of mental toughness, and IMO Sven will have to get over as his career progresses if he wants to truly make it, because there is no way this is the last piece of adversity he will face. But at least for him, he's now facing forward with whatever comes his way, and not looking back in the rear view focused on what he's perceived as wrongs.

Only time will tell if Sven actually has the ability or not to make it. But regardless, it is fully possible for Sven to be a legit NHL talent, and for Hartley and the Flames to be a good development team / program and even that they didn't miss handle Sven. Sometimes, the fit just isn't there.