Israel declares war on Hamas

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Gazans should release hostages, unconditionally, and recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist. That's it. Are those demands unreasonable, ghoulish and demonic?

Actually yes, it's unreasonable. You're asking that they give up the only leverage they have for nothing. Reasonable would be releasing the hostages and recognizing Israel as part of a negotiated settlement.

Originally Posted by Pointman

There's one fundamental thing here that needs to be addressed. You view Oct 7th as a one-off attack that, although horrible, happened long ago and is over. And what Israel is doing, in your opinion, is an overzealous revenge for the crime that maybe was brutal, but is a thing of the past and it's high time for the punishment to stop.

That's factually incorrect view. The Oct 7th attack is an ongoing situation because Gazans are still holding the hostages. If they had released the hostages and Israel kept bombing them as mere punishment, you might have had a point about unproportional response and over-the-top punishment. But as long, as hostages are there, it's an ongoing war, not a one-sided beating.

It is both. The war is a one-sided beating.

[afc wimbledon]

Does anyone really think there are any hostages left alive at this point?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by SebC

Actually yes, it's unreasonable. You're asking that they give up the only leverage they have for nothing. Reasonable would be releasing the hostages and recognizing Israel as part of a negotiated settlement.

So, taking civilians as hostages is reasonable negotiations tactic and demanding to release them unconditionally is unreasonable? Asking to drop the goal of destroying an existing state is unreasonable? I can hear this argument if we completely tear down any morals and look at it as a dirty fight for survival (which may well be correct). However, once you look at it this way, bombing out Gaza also becomes "reasonable" from Israel's perspective.

It is both. The war is a one-sided beating.

Try to guess. When it was the last time there was a missile alert in Israel because of a rocket fired from Gaza?

Seven hours and 40 minutes ago, from the time of my post.

The proof:


https://t.me/PikudHaOref_all/18674



Gaza is still fighting. They are loosing, but they don't give up. The propaganda made it look as if Gaza is lying helplessly on the ground and Israel keeps beating it. So everyone is telling Israel to stop. This view is factually incorrect. It's not like Gaza quit and just technically didn't declare surrender. They are still actively fighting.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Does anyone really think there are any hostages left alive at this point?

Most likely, at least some of them are.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As this week marks another hospital raid, putting the last hospital accessible by the north out of commission, as well as the killing of 5 journalists, I thought these two links from earlier this month were worth sharing. Apologies if they’ve already been shared:



https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...nians-in-gaza/

Amnesty International's process for coming to their conclusions isn't beyond criticism and has lost a lot of the plot since the end of the Cold War. They are known to cozy up to morally questionable regimes in order to get access and maintain a presence. They have had reporters in the past who were caught red handed being in the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. They have also backtracked on criticizing Russian aggression. After Putin threatened to shut them down in Russia, they took the "both sides, many sides" stance and even took Navalny off their list of prisoners of conscience before his death. They were also caught using altered and AI generated images on their social media not that long ago. There are also reports from ex-employees of the organization having a toxic work environment and internal bullying of their correspondents.

They rely heavily on individual accounts of people who obviously have a bias and can't be relied on as impartial witnesses. Like if someone says they aren't a terrorist and wrongfully imprisoned, they take it at face value.

It's not just them either. Many activist organizations are competitive with each other and all want the most sensationalist scoops, and will bend the narrative to get the most attention.

Like any media source, there is information they provide that can be useful, but people should keep in mind they they are not providing a full or unbiased perspective.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Does anyone really think there are any hostages left alive at this point?

I dunno. Killing 50,000+ people and destroying 92% of buildings in a country to save 100 hostages is something that won't be easily forgotten. There's going to be some people who think "yeah that will show them, they'll never #### with Israel again."

Meanwhile, many other people will view it as a permanent stain on the reputation of Israel and the people who live there. Within less than a decade, the global consensus will be that it was collective punishment and genocide. And the gain to Israel security is going to be slim because Iran has demonstrated their ability to launch precision attacks at key Israeli infrastructure.

The negative repercussions will not be confined to Israel's reputation. The lack of intervention to stop Israel destroys what little was left in the moral standing of America and it's western allies after the dubious war in Iraq. That is a clear win for China, Russia and Iran. Meanwhile, the US has gained nothing and Israel has gained a tiny bit of additional territory.

Perhaps some people in America or Canada can convince themselves their team stills has the moral high-ground. But for most people around the world, America and it's allies are no different than the the their opponents. Its America's weapons and American's cover and America's money that Israel is using. Israel's genocide will be America's genocide.

As China continues to rise and builds it's sphere of influence, the west will find itself with many fewer friends than they expect.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Amnesty International's process for coming to their conclusions isn't beyond criticism and has lost a lot of the plot since the end of the Cold War. They are known to cozy up to morally questionable regimes in order to get access and maintain a presence. They have had reporters in the past who were caught red handed being in the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. They have also backtracked on criticizing Russian aggression. After Putin threatened to shut them down in Russia, they took the "both sides, many sides" stance and even took Navalny off their list of prisoners of conscience before his death. They were also caught using altered and AI generated images on their social media not that long ago. There are also reports from ex-employees of the organization having a toxic work environment and internal bullying of their correspondents.

They rely heavily on individual accounts of people who obviously have a bias and can't be relied on as impartial witnesses. Like if someone says they aren't a terrorist and wrongfully imprisoned, they take it at face value.

It's not just them either. Many activist organizations are competitive with each other and all want the most sensationalist scoops, and will bend the narrative to get the most attention.

Like any media source, there is information they provide that can be useful, but people should keep in mind they they are not providing a full or unbiased perspective.

Instead of criticizing their process or their findings, you just recited the “Criticisms of Amnesty International” wikipedia page instead. And if you’d read it closer, you’d wouldn’t have left out the context of some of these criticisms.

Do you have an issue with the report, or not?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I dunno. Killing 50,000+ people and destroying 92% of buildings in a country to save 100 hostages is something that won't be easily forgotten. There's going to be some people who think "yeah that will show them, they'll never #### with Israel again."

Meanwhile, many other people will view it as a permanent stain on the reputation of Israel and the people who live there. Within less than a decade, the global consensus will be that it was collective punishment and genocide. And the gain to Israel security is going to be slim because Iran has demonstrated their ability to launch precision attacks at key Israeli infrastructure.

The negative repercussions will not be confined to Israel's reputation. The lack of intervention to stop Israel destroys what little was left in the moral standing of America and it's western allies after the dubious war in Iraq. That is a clear win for China, Russia and Iran. Meanwhile, the US has gained nothing and Israel has gained a tiny bit of additional territory.

Perhaps some people in America or Canada can convince themselves their team stills has the moral high-ground. But for most people around the world, America and it's allies are no different than the the their opponents. Its America's weapons and American's cover and America's money that Israel is using. Israel's genocide will be America's genocide.

As China continues to rise and builds it's sphere of influence, the west will find itself with many fewer friends than they expect.

This may well be correct. In grand scheme of things, it's a US/West war against Iran and Russia. Ukraine war and Gaza war are two fronts of the same war. So is Syrians brief war, that toppled Assad. Much like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea were merely different fronts of a global USA-USSR war.

From this point of view, it is not good vs evil, but more like two powers fighting for the influence. All historical arguments, even if they are historically accurate by themselves, are merely fed into people in order to rally them for wars. People on both sides are brainwashed into believing that the other side is an existential threat to them, so they should destroy them. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, as once the other side is brainwashed into destroying Israel, they do become a real, not imaginary, existential threat.

The reason why Iran wants to destroy Israel is because they view Israel as USA proxy in the region. This view is actually correct. Whether it's a legit reason to destroy Israel is another question. Similarly, though, Ukraine war is happening because US wants Ukraine in their sphere of influence and Russia doesn't want to have a large US proxy at their borders. Again, this is still not a legit excuse to invade Ukraine.

That being said, if you look at it this way, Gaza war is the way to a long and enduring peace.

Destroying Hamas in Gaza would not only rescue hostages, but also root the Iranian proxy out and make it clear that messing with American proxies in the region would wipe you out. Much like clearing Hezbollah from Israel's north border, although bloody, resulted in more stable situation up north. It's basically a short term pain for long term gain. The only argument that could be made is that maybe Israel should have done it in less bloody way. I do hear this argument. However, I think that

1. It's speculative. Maybe going this hard was the only way.
2. Israel is doing the job that UN forces failed to do. UN had a decade to root out Hezbollah and major powers had two decades to root out Hamas. They did nothing. So now Israel is doing the job the best it can. I could here you if there was somebody else willing to take Hamas terrorists out of Gaza in less bloody way, but there were nobody.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So, taking civilians as hostages is reasonable negotiations tactic and demanding to release them unconditionally is unreasonable? Asking to drop the goal of destroying an existing state is unreasonable?

It's the unconditional part that makes it an unreasonable demand. Peace for hostages and recognition is reasonable.

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's not like Gaza quit and just technically didn't declare surrender. They are still actively fighting.

Sure, but they're fighting with the relative effectiveness of a toddler against a black belt. Hence, it's a still a fight, but the damage is almost all hitting one side, making it one-sided. Not 100% but like 98% - I think that's sufficient to describe it as a one-sided beatdown.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This may well be correct. In grand scheme of things, it's a US/West war against Iran and Russia. Ukraine war and Gaza war are two fronts of the same war. So is Syrians brief war, that toppled Assad. Much like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea were merely different fronts of a global USA-USSR war.

From this point of view, it is not good vs evil, but more like two powers fighting for the influence. All historical arguments, even if they are historically accurate by themselves, are merely fed into people in order to rally them for wars. People on both sides are brainwashed into believing that the other side is an existential threat to them, so they should destroy them. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, as once the other side is brainwashed into destroying Israel, they do become a real, not imaginary, existential threat.

The reason why Iran wants to destroy Israel is because they view Israel as USA proxy in the region. This view is actually correct. Whether it's a legit reason to destroy Israel is another question. Similarly, though, Ukraine war is happening because US wants Ukraine in their sphere of influence and Russia doesn't want to have a large US proxy at their borders. Again, this is still not a legit excuse to invade Ukraine.

That being said, if you look at it this way, Gaza war is the way to a long and enduring peace.

Destroying Hamas in Gaza would not only rescue hostages, but also root the Iranian proxy out and make it clear that messing with American proxies in the region would wipe you out. Much like clearing Hezbollah from Israel's north border, although bloody, resulted in more stable situation up north. It's basically a short term pain for long term gain. The only argument that could be made is that maybe Israel should have done it in less bloody way. I do hear this argument. However, I think that

1. It's speculative. Maybe going this hard was the only way.
2. Israel is doing the job that UN forces failed to do. UN had a decade to root out Hezbollah and major powers had two decades to root out Hamas. They did nothing. So now Israel is doing the job the best it can. I could here you if there was somebody else willing to take Hamas terrorists out of Gaza in less bloody way, but there were nobody.

The other, actual argument is they are just making more future terrorists who want Israel gone. This doesn't help long term security, it just continues the cycle. If you read history, you'd understand how dumb this path is to repeat.


The point is, you can't treat humans as animals for decades and not have them turn into animals desperate for survival, still flaccidly launching rockets because that's all they can do at this point from their ruined decimated lives. They have had everything taken from them, so they have nothing left to lose. They also believe God is on their side, and what they are doing is righteous, so facts and reality have no meaning. This is the most dangerous person to have as an enemy. Understand human nature, and you may understand the plight Israel has created for itself.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The other, actual argument is they are just making more future terrorists who want Israel gone. This doesn't help long term security, it just continues the cycle. If you read history, you'd understand how dumb this path is to repeat.


The point is, you can't treat humans as animals for decades and not have them turn into animals desperate for survival, still flaccidly launching rockets because that's all they can do at this point from their ruined decimated lives. They have had everything taken from them, so they have nothing left to lose. They also believe God is on their side, and what they are doing is righteous, so facts and reality have no meaning. This is the most dangerous person to have as an enemy. Understand human nature, and you may understand the plight Israel has created for itself.

The trouble with this argument is it hasn't mattered what Israel does, they have been nice, they have been bastards, it hasn't mattered, Hamas like Hezbollah are committed to the complete and utter destruction of Israel and rely on a continuing war for their funding and reason for existence

While I think Israel has been utterly immoral in their actions in Gaza I can see the practical reason for it, nothing less than this has worked so maybe the utter destruction of Gaza destroys Hamas? maybe it doesn't but from Israels point of view so what? not destroying Gaza didnt fix anything, maybe this does, history is mostly made up of wars were the complete and total destruction of one side ended all resistance, if I'm Israeli moral issues aside I can see the argument for it

[GGG]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The trouble with this argument is it hasn't mattered what Israel does, they have been nice, they have been bastards, it hasn't mattered, Hamas like Hezbollah are committed to the complete and utter destruction of Israel and rely on a continuing war for their funding and reason for existence

While I think Israel has been utterly immoral in their actions in Gaza I can see the practical reason for it, nothing less than this has worked so maybe the utter destruction of Gaza destroys Hamas? maybe it doesn't but from Israels point of view so what? not destroying Gaza didnt fix anything, maybe this does, history is mostly made up of wars were the complete and total destruction of one side ended all resistance, if I'm Israeli moral issues aside I can see the argument for it

If you look at death tolls you can see that Israel’s actions do matter. You can look at Israeli deaths or total deaths. Recently Deaths correlate with Israeli military action. Now this doesn’t prove the counterfactual of less people would have died if Israel didn’t act but it does show Israeli actions matter.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The trouble with this argument is it hasn't mattered what Israel does, they have been nice, they have been bastards, it hasn't mattered, Hamas like Hezbollah are committed to the complete and utter destruction of Israel and rely on a continuing war for their funding and reason for existence

While I think Israel has been utterly immoral in their actions in Gaza I can see the practical reason for it, nothing less than this has worked so maybe the utter destruction of Gaza destroys Hamas? maybe it doesn't but from Israels point of view so what? not destroying Gaza didnt fix anything, maybe this does, history is mostly made up of wars were the complete and total destruction of one side ended all resistance, if I'm Israeli moral issues aside I can see the argument for it

In fact there is a Hadith that states Muslims must kill or convert every Jew in order to bring about Judgement Day, which is what Islamists want to bring about. It's literally a religious duty for them to kill Jews any time they can. This custom existed before 1948 and isn't being practiced now because the modern state of Israel was formed. It's one of the reasons why the region was so important for Muslims to conquer all those centuries ago and why it was so important to colonize and hold on to.

Moderate and secular Muslims do not follow the literal meaning of all the Hadiths, but Islamists do and there are a lot of them including Hamas. They actually use that Hadith as their Charter.

This isn't about land, it's about religion and national security. If Israel became a 100% Muslim country and maintained the same borders, I doubt any of their neighbours would care or advocate for Palestinians. They barely even do now because they know Hamas and what their motives are.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The other, actual argument is they are just making more future terrorists who want Israel gone. This doesn't help long term security, it just continues the cycle. If you read history, you'd understand how dumb this path is to repeat.

This isn't true at all. Mosques, schools and their government have been creating terrorists, as have the agencies like the UN. The Palestinians need these sources cleaned up and for them to teach people to make peace with Israel. They need good leaders. There will have to be some deradicalization in the region, similar to post WW2, and Palestinians will have to reconcile with their past.

I don't know of any pro peace movements that exist for Palestinians, we can't even find one in this thread - besides pro Israel posters that want peace.

Post WW2 didn't result in Japanese or German or Jewish or British or American or Russian or Canadian terrorists. All your statement does is infantilize Palestinians and denies serious issues that exist within a segment of their population. At some point in time, they have to see what corner Israel has been pushed into and how they too played into that.

Prior to October 7, most of us thought it would take time, but the prosperity of Israel, for both jews and Muslims, would be a motivator for normalization. And while that has worked with assorted neighbors, it hasn't for anyone linked to Iran - they seem to want the total destruction of Israel as their cause, they say so and do so. Post October 7, I no longer see in any way peace with the Palestinians, unless the radicals are removed from their society and they surrender.

You can argue any point I made and I am sure you will, but as other posters have repeated numerous times in this thread, Israel is making the big decisions here that will impact the Palestinians the most. Israel does not care what the UN or the world thinks, they truly believe they are the focus of a major war and maybe got a bit lucky this time, and will fight back with everything they have based on what they believe is an existential threat.

Of course there is a big decision Palestinians can make, and that is to surrender and make peace with Israel, true peace, eliminate any radicals and negative influences. They must lean on the west to rebuild and reject what brought them to decades of conflict.

None of this means Israel always made the best decisions, but some of the accusations in this thread are just so over the top, I just can't see this working without a complete turn in Palestinian expectations.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

This isn't true at all. Mosques, schools and their government have been creating terrorists, as have the agencies like the UN. The Palestinians need these sources cleaned up and for them to teach people to make peace with Israel. They need good leaders. There will have to be some deradicalization in the region, similar to post WW2, and Palestinians will have to reconcile with their past.

I don't know of any pro peace movements that exist for Palestinians, we can't even find one in this thread - besides pro Israel posters that want peace.

Post WW2 didn't result in Japanese or German or Jewish or British or American or Russian or Canadian terrorists. All your statement does is infantilize Palestinians and denies serious issues that exist within a segment of their population. At some point in time, they have to see what corner Israel has been pushed into and how they too played into that.

Prior to October 7, most of us thought it would take time, but the prosperity of Israel, for both jews and Muslims, would be a motivator for normalization. And while that has worked with assorted neighbors, it hasn't for anyone linked to Iran - they seem to want the total destruction of Israel as their cause, they say so and do so. Post October 7, I no longer see in any way peace with the Palestinians, unless the radicals are removed from their society and they surrender.

You can argue any point I made and I am sure you will, but as other posters have repeated numerous times in this thread, Israel is making the big decisions here that will impact the Palestinians the most. Israel does not care what the UN or the world thinks, they truly believe they are the focus of a major war and maybe got a bit lucky this time, and will fight back with everything they have based on what they believe is an existential threat.

Of course there is a big decision Palestinians can make, and that is to surrender and make peace with Israel, true peace, eliminate any radicals and negative influences. They must lean on the west to rebuild and reject what brought them to decades of conflict.

None of this means Israel always made the best decisions, but some of the accusations in this thread are just so over the top, I just can't see this working without a complete turn in Palestinian expectations.

Stop spreading lies. There is plenty of evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that decades of suffering foisted on the Palestinian people, while being robbed of land and told to shut up and accept their lot, have led to radicalization, and it makes it much easier to do the religious based indoctrination when you have an actual enemy controlling your borders, and wielding power and their military over you any time someone steps out of line, and using collective punishment to do it. Don't be ####ing daft. This is human nature, and comparing it to WWII stuff is NOT THE SAME THING, but it's a handy well you and your ilk seem to go to in this thread, which makes me think y'all read the same propaganda.

Hell, Israel's actions are radicalizing people all over the world against Jews, as you have seen, so it's not even just happening in Palestine. OPEN YOUR EYES. Anyway, go do some Googling about radicalized Palestinians and maybe you will start to see why continually treating people like animals turns them into animals. Might be less surprised when you get bit.

As to the bolded bit, well yes. Israel has been the one making the big decisions that HAVE impacted the Palestinians since they decided to create a state by taking other people's lands, homes, and murdering them. Their very first moves were extremely poorly thought out, but hey they had God on their side(sound familiar?) so they just had to keep doing it. And they'll continue to have to keep doing it, until they change their ####ing strategy.

I know you don't believe any of this, but that's what makes you unable to understand how people could do something so evil on Oct 7th.

[Fuzz]

Here, this is a better rebuttal than I could come up with, read the whole thing, then come back and argue against the author, past US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr, Former UK Defense Minister Ben Wallace, Security services in the United States, Haaretz’s Gideon Levy, and a whole bunch of very good points.

“The lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians,” Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin recently made headlines by warning.

“You see, in this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population," he said. "And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.”

Security services in the United States and around the world have already backed up these warnings. FBI Director Chris Wray cautioned last month that U.S. support for Israel’s war had led multiple terrorist organizations to call for attacks against Americans and the West, and had significantly “raised the threat of an attack” inside the United States.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/is...nterterrorism/

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

This isn't true at all. Mosques, schools and their government have been creating terrorists, as have the agencies like the UN. The Palestinians need these sources cleaned up and for them to teach people to make peace with Israel. They need good leaders. There will have to be some deradicalization in the region, similar to post WW2, and Palestinians will have to reconcile with their past.

I don't know of any pro peace movements that exist for Palestinians, we can't even find one in this thread - besides pro Israel posters that want peace.

Post WW2 didn't result in Japanese or German or Jewish or British or American or Russian or Canadian terrorists. All your statement does is infantilize Palestinians and denies serious issues that exist within a segment of their population. At some point in time, they have to see what corner Israel has been pushed into and how they too played into that.

Prior to October 7, most of us thought it would take time, but the prosperity of Israel, for both jews and Muslims, would be a motivator for normalization. And while that has worked with assorted neighbors, it hasn't for anyone linked to Iran - they seem to want the total destruction of Israel as their cause, they say so and do so. Post October 7, I no longer see in any way peace with the Palestinians, unless the radicals are removed from their society and they surrender.

You can argue any point I made and I am sure you will, but as other posters have repeated numerous times in this thread, Israel is making the big decisions here that will impact the Palestinians the most. Israel does not care what the UN or the world thinks, they truly believe they are the focus of a major war and maybe got a bit lucky this time, and will fight back with everything they have based on what they believe is an existential threat.

Of course there is a big decision Palestinians can make, and that is to surrender and make peace with Israel, true peace, eliminate any radicals and negative influences. They must lean on the west to rebuild and reject what brought them to decades of conflict.

None of this means Israel always made the best decisions, but some of the accusations in this thread are just so over the top, I just can't see this working without a complete turn in Palestinian expectations.

The communal punishment and reparations on Germany from WW1 I would argue set the stage for world war 2. Coming out of world war 2 rebuilding Germany and Japan were priorities of the post war world. This grossly over simplifies it but I think the world recognized the mistakes it made in the aftermath of ww1 to improve outcomes after ww2.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This may well be correct. In grand scheme of things, it's a US/West war against Iran and Russia. Ukraine war and Gaza war are two fronts of the same war. So is Syrians brief war, that toppled Assad. Much like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Korea were merely different fronts of a global USA-USSR war.

From this point of view, it is not good vs evil, but more like two powers fighting for the influence. All historical arguments, even if they are historically accurate by themselves, are merely fed into people in order to rally them for wars. People on both sides are brainwashed into believing that the other side is an existential threat to them, so they should destroy them. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, as once the other side is brainwashed into destroying Israel, they do become a real, not imaginary, existential threat.

The reason why Iran wants to destroy Israel is because they view Israel as USA proxy in the region. This view is actually correct. Whether it's a legit reason to destroy Israel is another question. Similarly, though, Ukraine war is happening because US wants Ukraine in their sphere of influence and Russia doesn't want to have a large US proxy at their borders. Again, this is still not a legit excuse to invade Ukraine.

That being said, if you look at it this way, Gaza war is the way to a long and enduring peace.

Destroying Hamas in Gaza would not only rescue hostages, but also root the Iranian proxy out and make it clear that messing with American proxies in the region would wipe you out. Much like clearing Hezbollah from Israel's north border, although bloody, resulted in more stable situation up north. It's basically a short term pain for long term gain. The only argument that could be made is that maybe Israel should have done it in less bloody way. I do hear this argument. However, I think that

1. It's speculative. Maybe going this hard was the only way.
2. Israel is doing the job that UN forces failed to do. UN had a decade to root out Hezbollah and major powers had two decades to root out Hamas. They did nothing. So now Israel is doing the job the best it can. I could here you if there was somebody else willing to take Hamas terrorists out of Gaza in less bloody way, but there were nobody.

The same country is buying oil from Iran and Russia, thereby funding their wars. That country gets the oil it needs, while also goading the west to fund two wars on two different fronts...

Israel also doesn't seem likely to root out Iran in Palestine, syria and Lebanon, so the war seems pointless. But if Israel were successful in that regard, it would bring the region closer to peace

[TheIronMaiden]

Peace is not Isreal's objective.

[Doctorfever]

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel...one-attack-idf

Apparently killed hiding in a humanitarian area.