Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Where did Hezbollah target rocket fire on Oct 8th?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Good news that a ceasefire deal seems close with Israel and Hezbollah.

Hezbollah originally claimed they were attacking Israel in response to activities in the Gaza region, but now the war in Gaza isn’t even a part of the proposed ceasefire deal. That seems very odd to me.

I mean, I am glad that (hopefully) some of the conflicts may be ending, but if he whole reason Hezbollah attacked Israel in the first place was in response to Israel’s actions in Gaza, then why is that not a condition of the proposed ceasefire agreement?

Because Israel appears intent on leveling anyone who doesn’t agree to their terms. So it’s self preservation at this point. It’s one of the advantages of having a crazy person in office. He won’t care if there are cvivilain casualties and will continue to back Israel.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by GGG

Because Israel appears intent on leveling anyone who doesn’t agree to their terms. So it’s self preservation at this point. It’s one of the advantages of having a crazy person in office. He won’t care if there are cvivilain casualties and will continue to back Israel.

I guess you are referring to Trump?

So Trump = peace?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Another weird response. In your world racism, vandalism and celebrating mass child murder are things that should be minimized and tolerated. Let's just call them "soccer fans".

Except that's just you strawmanning me. I never advocated that we minimize their actions or tolerate them. I just said that assault isn't right solution.

[Doctorfever]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75lpzq0re1o

Ceasefire deal announced by Biden.

Hopefully this puts pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. Steps in the right direction.

I guess Hezbollah wasn’t the juggernaut some proclaimed it to be.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Where did Hezbollah target rocket fire on Oct 8th?

Into Israel. Hezbollah joined the war on the next day after Hamas attack, you can google it in no time, including pro-Palestine sources such as Al Jazeera. Later Hezbollah tried to re-frame their shootings a "revenge" for Israeli actions in Gaza, but that's a lie.

October 8, 2023, was the day that Hezbollah, Iran’s more powerful proxy, began firing at Israel from Lebanon. The volume of fire that Israel has sustained since then is not well understood. Hezbollah has launched an estimated 10,000 rockets, missiles and drones at Israel since the fighting began. Entire swaths of Israel’s northern territory have been evacuated. The damage has yet to be assessed

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10...tober-8th-war/

Also https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...ional-tensions

[Pointman]

Never seen my children so happy in the entire lives. Wars are terrible. There should be some legal ban on trying to prove that some states, such as Ukraine or Israel, should not exist because the way they were founded at the first place was allegedly "illegitimate". That was the key point of Putin's invasion speech.

Pretty much every country, including Russia, Palestine, (and Canada for that matter), were created with blood and conquest and some degree of "catastrophe" for the previous inhabitants. We should get over it and accept current state of events as it is. Trying to prove that some countries were created "unfairly" and therefore should be dissolved is the root of evil. Trying to restore any kind of "historical justice" is opening a Pandora box.

[Pointman]

[QUOTE=Doctorfever;9260826]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75lpzq0re1o

Ceasefire deal announced by Biden.

Hopefully this puts pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. Steps in the right direction.

I guess Hezbollah wasn’t the juggernaut some proclaimed it to be.[/QUOTE]

One of the things I have learned from those two wars is that it's very hard to assess a strength of any army until the actual fight. Pre-war estimations of Russian strength, Ukrainian strength, Hezbollah's strength, Hamas strength and actually Israel strength were off, in some cases way way off.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Into Israel. Hezbollah joined the war on the next day after Hamas attack, you can google it in no time, including pro-Palestine sources such as Al Jazeera. Later Hezbollah tried to re-frame their shootings a "revenge" for Israeli actions in Gaza, but that's a lie.

October 8, 2023, was the day that Hezbollah, Iran’s more powerful proxy, began firing at Israel from Lebanon. The volume of fire that Israel has sustained since then is not well understood. Hezbollah has launched an estimated 10,000 rockets, missiles and drones at Israel since the fighting began. Entire swaths of Israel’s northern territory have been evacuated. The damage has yet to be assessed

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10...tober-8th-war/

Also https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...ional-tensions

Wrong.


From your second link:

Hezbollah, a powerful armed group backed by Iran, said it had launched guided rockets and artillery onto three posts in Shebaa Farms “in solidarity” with the Palestinian people. Shebaa Farms, which is claimed by Lebanon, was captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War.

This is illegally occupied territory, not Israel. They have no recognized right to the land, yet they have people occupying it. Israel responded by firing rockets into Lebanon. Who fired on who's territory here?


Right, it's not so simple.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Wrong.


From your second link:



This is illegally occupied territory, not Israel. They have no recognized right to the land, yet they have people occupying it. Israel responded by firing rockets into Lebanon. Who fired on who's territory here?


Right, it's not so simple.

It's irrelevant. For what it worth, USA recognize Golan Heights as Israel. Furthermore, inhabitants would much rather be residents of Israel, than Syria. Still, Hezbollah fired at Israeli army on the next day after 7th October, that means joining the war. It had nothing to do with Israel actions in Gaza, that had yet to happen.

Regardless, they began to fire into internationally recognized Israel territory soon after. The news below is from October 11th and Aramsha is internationally recognized Israel land:

The Israeli reinforcements were sent to the Israel-Lebanon border after Hezbollah fired anti-tank missiles at an Israeli military position in a northern border town of Aramsha

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel...orthern-border

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c75lpzq0re1o

Ceasefire deal announced by Biden.

Hopefully this puts pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. Steps in the right direction.

I guess Hezbollah wasn’t the juggernaut some proclaimed it to be.

Hezbollah, even if more organized than Hamas, is still somewhat isolated in the region. There is a lot of opposition and dislike for them in Lebanon both at the political and the street level, probably lot more than there is opposition and hatred for Hamas in Gaza. They basically put up with Hezbollah because of the saying that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and trying to kick them out could cause a civil war.

Hezbollah is also generally disliked in Sunni Arab countries, not to mention Arab Christians. Unlike Hamas whose stated mission is to destroy Israel and kill Jews (literally, that is what they state). Hezbollah was created as a movement to create a Shia Islamist revolution in Lebanon in the same shape as the Iranian revolution. For obvious reasons, that bothers other countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah certainly isn't going to get support from those countries like Hamas does and in fact many were probably cheering against them. Of course, they also hate Israel but it isn't necessarily all they care about.

[activeStick]

Canadian healthcare workers return home and speak truth to the realities in Gaza. Over 18,000 children. Absolutely terrible.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1861505581854433466

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Canadian healthcare workers return home and speak truth to the realities in Gaza. Over 18,000 children. Absolutely terrible.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1861505581854433466

Realities in Gaza are terrifying. This is what happens if you let terrorist organization run the country for two decades. Hopefully, Hamas will soon cease to exist and Gaza will be run by whomever is focused on building its own state instead of destroying the neighbouring one.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Realities in Gaza are terrifying. This is what happens if you let terrorist organization run the country for two decades. Hopefully, Hamas will soon cease to exist and Gaza will be run by whomever is focused on building its own state instead of destroying the neighbouring one.

I agree with the sentiment. But I can't imagine there are any pacifists left in Gaza after what Israel has done to them. Israel has created the next two generations of terrorists in its response to Oct 7. And so the cycle continues.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree with the sentiment. But I can't imagine there are any pacifists left in Gaza after what Israel has done to them. Israel has created the next two generations of terrorists in its response to Oct 7. And so the cycle continues.

I have seen this argument many times, but have yet to see any evidence of that. There were many times in history where one nation defeated another one, usually in quite brutal way. This tends to subdue and calm down the defeated, rather than create generations of terrorists craving for revenge. From my personal experience, when USSR fell to USA in the cold war, people were not thinking about "revenge", but rather tend to mock communists and suck up to USA. That's human nature. By and large we are not indomitable freedom fighters. Subduing Chechnya in 1999-2000 is another example. After brutal campaign by Putin, they have been the most loyal not-native-Russian region of Russia.

More to the personal experience, Germans murdered millions of Jews and also invaded my native county. I don't hate Germans at all. As I work for German company, I work with them on daily basis. I have zero intention to revenge Holocaust or WWII. Among non-jewish Russians there's also no hate towards Germans because of WWII, despite 27 millions of Russians killed.

Also, see how nuking Japan in return for Pearl Harbor - which was in many ways similar to what Israel is doing in return for Oct 7th - turned them into pacifists, rather than avengers.

https://japantoday.com/category/nati...-gallup-survey

It's money and propaganda, rather than historical injustice, that creates terrorists. In 70s Israelis and Gazans lived in peace and travelled to one another. Somehow Gazans didn't care about 1948 Nakba and other alleged atrocities that accompanied the creation of modern Israel.

many Gazan workers took jobs in the agriculture, construction and services industries inside Israel, to which they could gain easy access at that time

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...oe-2023-10-10/

See, somehow they had no problem working for that "evil Zionist project", as long as it brought bread to the table. That was barely 20 years after the supposedly "unforgettable catastrophe" of Nakba.

It was only after Iran funneled oil money into propaganda and brainwashing, Gazans suddenly realized that they can't forgive Nakba and absolutely must avenge it.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I have seen this argument many times, but have yet to see any evidence of that. There were many times in history where one nation defeated another one, usually in quite brutal way. This tends to subdue and calm down the defeated, rather than create generations of terrorists craving for revenge. From my personal experience, when USSR fell to USA in the cold war, people were not thinking about "revenge", but rather tend to mock communists and suck up to USA. That's human nature. By and large we are not indomitable freedom fighters. Subduing Chechnya in 1999-2000 is another example. After brutal campaign by Putin, they have been the most loyal not-native-Russian region of Russia.

More to the personal experience, Germans murdered millions of Jews and also invaded my native county. I don't hate Germans at all. As I work for German company, I work with them on daily basis. I have zero intention to revenge Holocaust or WWII. Among non-jewish Russians there's also no hate towards Germans because of WWII, despite 27 millions of Russians killed.

Also, see how nuking Japan in return for Pearl Harbor - which was in many ways similar to what Israel is doing in return for Oct 7th - turned them into pacifists, rather than avengers.

https://japantoday.com/category/nati...-gallup-survey

It's money and propaganda, rather than historical injustice, that creates terrorists. In 70s Israelis and Gazans lived in peace and travelled to one another. Somehow Gazans didn't care about 1948 Nakba and other alleged atrocities that accompanied the creation of modern Israel.



https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...oe-2023-10-10/

See, somehow they had no problem working for that "evil Zionist project", as long as it brought bread to the table. That eas barely 20 years after "the unforgettable catastrophe" of Nakba.

It was only after Iran funneled oil money into propaganda and brainwashing, Gazans suddenly realized that they can't forgive Nakba and absolutely must avenge it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar

Sinwar was brainwashed by Muslim Brotherhood. Sinwar also spoke about the poor life conditions - rather than some sense of historical injustice - made him what he was:


From the late 1970s, activists connected with the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood established a network of charities, clinics, and schools and became active in the territories (the Gaza Strip and West Bank) occupied by Israel after the 1967 Six-Day War. In Gaza they were active in many mosques, while their activities in the West Bank generally were limited to the universities. The Muslim Brotherhood’s activities in these areas were generally nonviolent, but a number of small groups in the occupied territories began to call for jihad, or holy war, against Israel. In December 1987, at the beginning of the Palestinian intifada (Arabic intifāḍah, “shaking off”) uprising against Israeli occupation, Hamas (which also is an Arabic word meaning “zeal”) was established by members of the Muslim Brotherhood and religious factions of the PLO

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hamas


“Something he always remembered is that all the men in the camp would go to one bathroom, and the women to another,” said Esmat Mansour, a fellow prisoner held from 1993 to 2013 for killing an Israeli settler. “There was a daily line and you had to wait. And how they distributed food and the humiliation they would undergo. It isn’t something special to him, but it apparently impacted him a lot.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/26/w...ison-swap.html

[Pointman]

There are also 2.1 millions of Palestinian Arabs that live in Israel and are Israel citizens. Some of them even serve in Israel army. That matches the 2M population of Gaza and only trails to 2.9M population of West Bank. Somehow, Palestinians who were born into Israel don't feel the need to revenge whatever atrocities Israel allegedly committed. It's only those Palestinian Arabs, who were born into poverty and propaganda riddled Gaza and West Bank, that can't get over the creation of Israel.


I guess, it is loosely similar to conquest of North America. It wasn't really as simple, as First Nations defending their land against invading Europeans. In reality, various indigenous tribes formed alliances with various European factions and frequently fought alongside Europeans against othe tribes, allied with other Europeans.

[PepsiFree]

Putin must have rung the bell.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Sinwar was brainwashed by Muslim Brotherhood. Sinwar also spoke about the poor life conditions - rather than some sense of historical injustice - made him what he was:


From the late 1970s, activists connected with the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood established a network of charities, clinics, and schools and became active in the territories (the Gaza Strip and West Bank) occupied by Israel after the 1967 Six-Day War. In Gaza they were active in many mosques, while their activities in the West Bank generally were limited to the universities. The Muslim Brotherhood’s activities in these areas were generally nonviolent, but a number of small groups in the occupied territories began to call for jihad, or holy war, against Israel. In December 1987, at the beginning of the Palestinian intifada (Arabic intifāḍah, “shaking off”) uprising against Israeli occupation, Hamas (which also is an Arabic word meaning “zeal”) was established by members of the Muslim Brotherhood and religious factions of the PLO

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hamas


“Something he always remembered is that all the men in the camp would go to one bathroom, and the women to another,” said Esmat Mansour, a fellow prisoner held from 1993 to 2013 for killing an Israeli settler. “There was a daily line and you had to wait. And how they distributed food and the humiliation they would undergo. It isn’t something special to him, but it apparently impacted him a lot.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/26/w...ison-swap.html

You have an astounding ability to clearly see, and then ignore the actual point. Yes, the poor living conditions made him what he was...and what was the cause of those poor living conditions? Oh ya, it was the historical injustice caused by the actions of Israel. What's happening in Gaza now to millions of innocent people? Massive injustice that at some point will be...historical. What will that lead to? Hrmmm...hrmmm...hmmm. Nope, can't figure it out. No way people will grow up angry looking for revenge. "Gee, I just can't understand why they hate us so much!"

Dude is a perfect example of what you claimed to have never seen evidence of. Presumably willful ignorance at play? I can't help but think there is something in the upbringing of Russians that allows them to think this way. It's entirely baffling, but the same silly justifications are pretty similar to how Putin speaks about his right to Ukraine. Is this cultural? I don't get it.