Ukraine and indeed the rest of the world cannot give Russia any recognition of these new made-up borders, not even an inch.
Just for the record, I agree that this should be the goal.
However, that's mutually exclusive with a quick peace, and it's not an unreasonable position to think the borders don't actually matter that much, even if we disagree with it. It's possible to understand a position you don't share.
Russia's attack on Ukraine has already been a complete disaster and a massive loss for Russia in many ways anyway.
It's also worthwhile to be realistic about it, and remember that Russia still has a ton of metal and manpower on their side.
Point is what? That the US invaded, didn’t find the weapons, and at home has been publicly humiliated by the free press for this blunder?
Or you think China is on par with allowing that level of transparency?
We just came out of a pandemic and lost plenty of lives due to the second time in 20 years China lied and hid the truth. They commit genocide and call it retraining. They imprison their people, on mass for having COVID.
Yet you can get on a plane tomorrow and fly to Dallas or San Francisco or New York and scream and burn their flag. Then go home to Canada and write this nonsense about how their government is basically the same as China.
Point was that pretty much every government misleads their people when it’s politically convenient. Someone can make that statement without being supportive or minimizing the difference in levels some countries take that to and how they go about it. In your previous post you were implying that this only occurs in China which is just plain silly.
Bonus points for the “statistic” of COVID only being the second example in 20 years of China lying and hiding the truth about something.
Just for the record, I agree that this should be the goal.
However, that's mutually exclusive with a quick peace, and it's not an unreasonable position to think the borders don't actually matter that much, even if we disagree with it. It's possible to understand a position you don't share.
Russia's attack on Ukraine has already been a complete disaster and a massive loss for Russia in many ways anyway.
It's also worthwhile to be realistic about it, and remember that Russia still has a ton of metal and manpower on their side.
This one shows a map of the situation. The flooding of the river looks to have closed off routes of escape for the russians trying to encircle bakhmut.
This one shows a map of the situation. The flooding of the river looks to have closed off routes of escape for the russians trying to encircle bakhmut.
I thought the Ukraine Daily podcast from The Telegraph did an excellent job summing up the Chinese "proposal"
Quote:
Our Weekend Foreign Editor Venetia Rainey comments on the oddity of China's Peace Plan:
"It's full of the usual stuff that you might expect. China did not describe Russia as invading. They didn't call it a war. They called it 'the Ukraine crisis'. That's Russia speak. This is not a concrete plan. China is not going to become a significant mediator in this conflict anytime soon. It's notable that China's abstained from UN votes on this issue".
Assistant Comment Editor Francis Dearnley agreed:
"There is no sense if you read this that there has been an affront to the international order. There is very little sense of anger at what Russia have done".
He goes on to emphasise why China are so keen on maintaining the status quo:
"Part of the reason that China wants these peace plans to be enacted sooner rather than later is that it will benefit from a more stable economic, global marketplace. They argue that there needs to be a keeping of the industrial and supply chains when really it is they who stand to benefit".
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I thought the Ukraine Daily podcast from The Telegraph did an excellent job summing up the Chinese "proposal"
Saying that a peace proposal isn't angry enough is kind of silly. Also, peace and trade are good for everyone, not just China. Zelensky himself also said that part of what he would talk to Xi about in their meeting would be trade and economy, which shouldn't be surprising as China was an important trade partner for Ukraine and a country where China was making a lot of investment.
If anything, the rapid rejection of the proposal by the US, EU, and NATO even when Zelensky expressed openness to seeing where it could go will serve only to create a greater sense of alienation and division between the West and a lot of the Global South. What happened to all the assertions of peace having to be reached on what works for Ukraine anyways?
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Any peace proposal that does not include a complete withdrawal of Russian military forces from Ukraine isn't a peace proposal, it's a surrender proposal. And any peace proposal that doesn't have measures in place to prevent Russia from continually attacking their neighbours, is just a plan to buy Russia more time. The Chinese plan has no actual map on how to get there and is really just a wish list.
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Saying that a peace proposal isn't angry enough is kind of silly. Also, peace and trade are good for everyone, not just China. Zelensky himself also said that part of what he would talk to Xi about in their meeting would be trade and economy, which shouldn't be surprising as China was an important trade partner for Ukraine and a country where China was making a lot of investment.
If anything, the rapid rejection of the proposal by the US, EU, and NATO even when Zelensky expressed openness to seeing where it could go will serve only to create a greater sense of alienation and division between the West and a lot of the Global South. What happened to all the assertions of peace having to be reached on what works for Ukraine anyways?
haha. The West! Look at what The West has done!
Chinese peace plan doesn't even mention the fact that one side is the aggressor, but that won't stop JohnnyB from his work!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
Last edited by nik-; 02-26-2023 at 10:13 PM.
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Any peace proposal that does not include a complete withdrawal of Russian military forces from Ukraine isn't a peace proposal, it's a surrender proposal. And any peace proposal that doesn't have measures in place to prevent Russia from continually attacking their neighbours, is just a plan to buy Russia more time. The Chinese plan has no actual map on how to get there and is really just a wish list.
China's not in a position to impose a detailed settlement on anyone. All it can do is try and get both sides to the table so that they can figure out the details. Right now that process of figuring out the details is only taking place with soldiers, so if they're willing to try to engage both sides on figuring out the details with non-violent means I don't see a problem with that. As Zelensky said, it's all in what steps follow from the initial proposal. If it fails, it fails, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. Ukraine and Russia will still be figuring it out with soldiers if it doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
haha. The West! Look at what The West has done!
Chinese peace plan doesn't even mention the fact that one side is the aggressor, but that won't stop JohnnyB from his work!
The 'work' of contributing constructively rather than trolling?
Perhaps you should read something about the growing division between the West and the rest of the world. Here's something:
While Biden is pushing "democracy vs. autocracy" and opinions in Western countries are moving towards a view of a world divided between the Western bloc and a Chinese-led bloc, the rest of the world is looking towards a multi-polar future. This is why there is a new non-aligned movement rising. Most of the world just sees the Western outlook of 'our bloc vs. the other' as a continuation of the historical failure of the Global North to recognize the legitimacy of the many varied sovereign interests and capacities of countries in the Global South and to take them seriously.
__________________
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China's not in a position to impose a detailed settlement on anyone. All it can do is try and get both sides to the table so that they can figure out the details. Right now that process of figuring out the details is only taking place with soldiers, so if they're willing to try to engage both sides on figuring out the details with non-violent means I don't see a problem with that. As Zelensky said, it's all in what steps follow from the initial proposal. If it fails, it fails, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. Ukraine and Russia will still be figuring it out with soldiers if it doesn't work.
The 'work' of contributing constructively rather than trolling?
Perhaps you should read something about the growing division between the West and the rest of the world. Here's something:
While Biden is pushing "democracy vs. autocracy" and opinions in Western countries are moving towards a view of a world divided between the Western bloc and a Chinese-led bloc, the rest of the world is looking towards a multi-polar future. This is why there is a new non-aligned movement rising. Most of the world just sees the Western outlook of 'our bloc vs. the other' as a continuation of the historical failure of the Global North to recognize the legitimacy of the many varied sovereign interests and capacities of countries in the Global South and to take them seriously.
While I think "democracy or autocracy" is going to be a decisive question of this century (along with the AI revolution and upcoming ecodisaster) (also didn't we effin' settle this already...) it's really good to remember that this divide isn't the "US vs China" divide Biden wants to make it. (Although I think Biden is in part doing that rhetoric because he wants to make autocracy less popular in the US.)
From the POV of much (not all) of the non-western world, USA (with it's allies) is the #1 anti-democratic bully on the global map, who have a long history of supporting dictators and who love to make decisions for everyone else, and the one most prone to using armed forces to keep dissident countries in line... While China is seen by many (not all, obviously) as a much more softer and co-operative superpower.
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I am firmly on Team Ukraine but it's crazy to think that if things hadn't gone so well for Ukraine in that battle for the airport field, that this entire scenario and this war would be drastically different in a lot of ways.
If Russia was able to establish a base at that airfield and than proceed into Kyiv, they would have been able to track down key government officials like Zelensky and execute them and establish a puppet government.
The distance from that airport to central Kyiv is just over 30 km's.
Regardless, some key decisions, strategic intelligence and incredible heart helped a lot in this.
There has been ample reporting that Zelensky had downplayed the risk to Ukraine and to himself from US authorities but it wasn't until the director of the CIA visited Ukraine himself in the days leading up to the invasion. Pretty much laid out this particular plan and the hunt to find him and kill him did it become a little more real.
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That post was later shared by former US national security adviser Michael Flynn, who added: "I double dare anyone to say he is wrong."
I have to say the level of detail put into this hoax is impressive. I can’t wait to go back to Kefalonia to confront the waitress I’ve known for years who is perpetuating this hoax. I feel truly duped that I believed for a second that her elderly mother was in Skala because she had to flee Mariupol.
