Israel declares war on Hamas

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Your use of words is telling regarding trying to minimize their behaviour and refusing to acknowledge what they did and who they are.

Chanting? They were singing a song of celebration at the mass murder of children, infants and babies. Not to mention their outright racism.

Can you name me a soccer "chant" ever that comes close in terms of vileness. Just one. They're in a league of their own when it comes to "chanting".

I can't. But "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide of Jews. "Resistance by any means necessary" is an endorsement of terrorism.

The reason I chose the word chanting is to emphasize that their provocations were verbal, and not physical. Thus, physically attacking them is not a matter of self-defense. It's assault.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Soccer fans? Have you got a problem describing them for exactly what they are? They're a bunch of vile, racist, infanticide,genocide loving hooligans who went looking for trouble.

They are a group that includes some vile, racist, infanticide, genocide-loving hooling who went looking for trouble, but if I had just started talking about a bunch of vile, racist, infanticide, genocide-loving hooligans who went looking for trouble, then how would you know I'm not talking about Hamas?

Originally Posted by Bagor

? You're trying to imply they are some sort of blameless victim? You call it assault, I call it a well deserved slap. And that's all they got. A slap.

Five people got "slapped" all the way to the hospital. Yes, they were assaulted. You can't say it? You can call it a "well-deserved assault" if you like. Even a literal slap is assault. To say that it's a slap, and not be able to say that it's assault, is absurd.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Why should there be consistency? The two groups aren't consistent. One is a group of trouble seeking genocide celebrating hooligans. The other is a group of blameless children.

One should always try to be internally consistent in one's morality. The casualties of Israeli action are not solely blameless children. Come on. Some of them are trouble seeking genocide celebrating hooligans who got a well-deserved slap.

Originally Posted by Bagor

You're hyperfocused on some sort of definition of what an appropriate/proportional response is which I agree isn't an easy task to describe.

But for whatever reason you don't seem to want to acknowledge addressing the issue from another angle. You're hyperfocused on asking the question from only one angle when there are other ways to answer it.

Like, what are considered inappropriate, unacceptable, disproportional responses?

What should Israel NOT do and not have done? Isn't that what they're being judged on?

No, I've acknowledged it several times. You just ignore it every time.

The reason a positive answer is necessary is it shows capacity to put yourself in Israeli shoes.

We agree that Israel should not target civilians, commit war crimes, or engage in genocide or ethnic cleansing. That still leaves a very wide range of action. But to condemn Israel for collateral damage is only valid if a better solution exists. That's why I'm asking what that better solution might be. To judge Israel fairly we must be able to put ourselves in their position.

Having a clear view of what Israel should not do is a start, but it's not sufficient to replace the need for an assessment of what they can.

To be clear before you start twisting my words, because your modus operandi is very apparent: this does not mean that I am calling genocide collateral damage. That's not how the English language works. I am talking about two different things.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

The reason I chose the word chanting is to emphasize that their provocations were verbal, and not physical. Thus, physically attacking them is not a matter of self-defense. It's assault.

Weak.
I get it. You have a high tolerance for racist and genocidal "chanting.".

Because they're only verbally being racist and chanting to celebrate child mass murder that somehow makes them exempt from a good slap. That somehow makes it more tolerable.

Assault. A good slap. Who cares what it's called. The difference between me and you is I believe it's well deserved.

Originally Posted by SebC

They are a group that includes some vile, racist, infanticide, genocide-loving hooling who went looking for trouble, but if I had just started talking about a bunch of vile, racist, infanticide, genocide-loving hooligans who went looking for trouble, then how would you know I'm not talking about Hamas?

Another weak response. You try and minimize who they are and what they do.
"Soccer fans"? Eff me. You couldn't even bring yourself to call them hooligans.

Originally Posted by SebC

Five people got "slapped" all the way to the hospital. Yes, they were assaulted. You can't say it? You can call it a "well-deserved assault" if you like. Even a literal slap is assault. To say that it's a slap, and not be able to say that it's assault, is absurd.

Waa Waa and how many were kept. A bunch of vile genocide racists got a well deserved slap.
And you go out of your way to present them as blameless "soccer fans". Poor victims.

What is absurd is your level of tolerance for racism and infanticide celebration with this weird assertion that somehow because they're only verbalizing it, it's less of a deal.

Soccer fans? You're going out of your way to trivialize, minimize and normalize them and their behaviour.

Originally Posted by SebC

One should always try to be internally consistent in one's morality. The casualties of Israeli action are not solely blameless children. Come on. Some of them are trouble seeking genocide celebrating hooligans who got a well-deserved slap.

And? Your point is? Has anyone argued that for those people it wasn't well deserved? Is anyone crying that they are victims?

Originally Posted by SebC

The reason a positive answer is necessary is it shows capacity to put yourself in Israeli shoes.

We agree that Israel should not target civilians, commit war crimes, or engage in genocide or ethnic cleansing. That still leaves a very wide range of action. But to condemn Israel for collateral damage is only valid if a better solution exists. That's why I'm asking what that better solution might be. To judge Israel fairly we must be able to put ourselves in their position..

I'm sure they'll have every opportunity at ICC and ICJ to state why they had no other option but genocide.

Unbelievable that you're trying to normalize and present a group of vile disgusting genocidal hooligans racists as victims.

[Bill Bumface]

A panda walks into a bar.

The bartender asks, "Would you like anything to drink?"

The panda replies, "No thanks, I'm only here to eat."

"So what would you like to eat?"

"I'll just take the fries."

The bartender serves the panda, who enjoys the meal. He asks, "Now, will your payment be cash or card?"

The panda calmly replies, "Oh, just card."

After paying, the panda gets up and takes out a pistol. He fires a few shots in the direction of a few men, killing some in the process.

The bartender, horrified, shouts, "What the hell was that for? You just killed 4 men!"

The panda says, "I'm a panda, man. Look it up." The panda then abruptly exits the bar.

The bartender confused, looks up "Panda" on Google. The description said:

"The giant panda is a bear species endemic to China. It is characterised by its bold black-and-white coat and rotund body. Eats shoots and leaves."

[Language]

There’s no point in debating with someone who just repeats genocide every second word, without being able to explain why it’s a genocide. It’s a shtick at this point.


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[SutterBrother]

Soccer hooligans showed up, got drunk, yelled sh-tty things, got in fights.

None of this should be news, and nobody involved was "right" (much like the war).

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

There’s no point in debating with someone who just repeats genocide every second word, without being able to explain why it’s a genocide. It’s a shtick at this point.


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You haven’t exactly done a good job of debating the people who have described it as a genocide and provided reasons why so I’m not really sure this is the play I’d go with.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Language

There’s no point in debating with someone who just repeats genocide every second word, without being able to explain why it’s a genocide.

Triggered.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...torial-debate/

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Language

There’s no point in debating with someone who just repeats genocide every second word, without being able to explain why it’s a genocide. It’s a shtick at this point.


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I have largely stayed out of this particular thread and just read, absorbed and watched from afar. Not minimizing anything on either sides in terms of of what they have gone through but just applying the same scenario's to the opposite side with the same level of information we kind of all have.

If we took Gaza's death rate and applied it to Israel's population, we are talking about approx 200k killed. If we take the war standard of causalities/significant injuries 2-3 times the death rate, we are talking about 600k Israelis with such significant injuries that they will suffer the rest of their life in pain and agony.

If we take a basic human level of logic and say that after whatever conflict has happened in a variety of wars throughout the world throughout history, everything that the civilians have dealt with..... famine, lack of water, food, medicine, medical professionals, treatment for various health concerns, long term affects mentally and physically etc. If take all of this and apply a factor of 10 to the casualty rate we are left with a big number of people who have died in a million different conflicts throughout history as a direct result of this conflict after several years.

These of course are back of napkin math and conservative numbers but I struggle to understand what on earth the worlds leaders, people on this forum, history professors and everybody else would call the death of 2+ million people in Israel in 2024 if Israel's adversary's were able to achieve what is happening next door in Gaza, in a hypothetical scenario.

2 million Israel's dead divided by Holocaust during WW2 of 6 million means we could be 1/3 of the way there, not quite Holocaust levels but a light version? A diet version? An unsuccessful Holocaust? A Dollar store Holocaust since it cost less than the first one?

Some people who are rational, pragmatic, empathetic and more may just calling it genocide. That's ok too but let's not get too caught up in words.

[Bagor]

The international criminal court has issued arrest warrants for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, the country’s former defence minister Yoav Gallant and the Hamas leader Mohammed Deif for alleged war crimes relating to the Gaza war.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...=share_btn_url

[Looch City]

Wow the ICC are also Hamas sympathizers?

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bagor

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...=share_btn_url

And the Dutch are quick to come out and say they will arrest Netanyahu if he steps into their jurisdiction.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/11/dut...ster-confirms/

The Netherlands will respect the decision of the International Criminal Court to issue a warrant for Israeli#prime minister#Benjamin Netanyahu and will arrest him if he sets foot on Dutch soil, foreign minister Caspar#Veldkamp told parliament#on Thursday.

[Bagor]

The news doesn't appear to have reached the National Post yet? Either that or they can't bring themselves to report it?

https://nationalpost.com/category/ne...l-middle-east/

That and that Trudeau says Canada will abide by the arrest warrants.

[Fuzzy14]

a group of vile disgusting genocidal hooligans racists as victims

You may be confused, he wasn't talking about Palestinians, he was talking about Israelis.

/exitstageleft

[activeStick]

I've pointed out the hypocrisy before around the west and the ICC, but didn't expect an actual US government official to lay things out so explicitly!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1859608976389714045

[TheIronMaiden]

keepers of freedom and democracy.

[SebC]

Hey Bagor! Should the hooligans in Montreal be beaten up and thrown into the St. Laurent?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SebC

Hey Bagor! Should the hooligans in Montreal be beaten up and thrown into the St. Laurent?

You already asked me a similar question?

Yes. Give them a slap. Well deserved.

You still seem whiny that the Israeli genocidal, infanticide supporting, racist, hooligans (or as you would call them. "soccer fans") got a wee clip around the ear.

And it's the St Lawrence.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You already asked me a similar question?

Yes. Give them a slap. Well deserved.

You still seem whiny that the Israeli genocidal, infanticide supporting, racist, hooligans (or as you would call them. "soccer fans") got a wee clip around the ear.

And it's the St Lawrence.

This guy is calling people whiny. Classic.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Winnie

This guy is calling people whiny. Classic.

The irony

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Bagor

The irony

My point exactly.