It makes me laugh that people hate The Last Jedi but love The Mandalorian because from a pacing, universe building, and character development perspective The Mandalorian is closer to TLJ than it is to TFA or ROS.
Don’t get me wrong TLJ had its issues (Space Leia, Space Horses, etc) but it actually had decent character development arcs for Poe, Finn, Rey, and had a good redemption arc for Luke. Neither TFA or ROS even tried to develop the characters in anyway and pacing in those movies doesn’t exist.
I still think the biggest issue with The Last Jedi is that the older fans that grew up with Star Wars had their own plot in mind that tied more directly to the original trilogy, and didn’t like this one started to move away from that and that Disney was trying to take the franchise in a new direction.
They didn’t like seeing broken Luke (which actually isn’t Rian’s fault as that was set up in TFA), they wanted Snoke to be some big bad with connections to the OT, and didn’t like that the Finn/Rose storyline was throwing grey into the Black/White storyline that was Jedi vs Sith.
You can tell Disney has learned their lesson from that though. The ROS was just 120 minutes of fan service that all called back directly to the Original Trilogy, and now they just announced 10 new series that all tie directly into the original trilogy.
So much for trying to expand the universe or take is in a new and different direction.
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The only issue I had with the girl team was that they erased that other Mandalorian guy that was working with them (and presumably a trusted member of their team for years) with no explanation. Doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t bring him along for the ultimate mission they’ve all been building towards. It was clearly done just for a “girl power” scene.
It makes me laugh that people hate The Last Jedi but love The Mandalorian because from a pacing, universe building, and character development perspective The Mandalorian is closer to TLJ than it is to TFA or ROS.
Don’t get me wrong TLJ had its issues (Space Leia, Space Horses, etc) but it actually had decent character development arcs for Poe, Finn, Rey, and had a good redemption arc for Luke. Neither TFA or ROS even tried to develop the characters in anyway and pacing in those movies doesn’t exist.
I still think the biggest issue with The Last Jedi is that the older fans that grew up with Star Wars had their own plot in mind that tied more directly to the original trilogy, and didn’t like this one started to move away from that and that Disney was trying to take the franchise in a new direction.
They didn’t like seeing broken Luke (which actually isn’t Rian’s fault as that was set up in TFA), they wanted Snoke to be some big bad with connections to the OT, and didn’t like that the Finn/Rose storyline was throwing grey into the Black/White storyline that was Jedi vs Sith.
You can tell Disney has learned their lesson from that though. The ROS was just 120 minutes of fan service that all called back directly to the Original Trilogy, and now they just announced 10 new series that all tie directly into the original trilogy.
So much for trying to expand the universe or take is in a new and different direction.
For those that don't want to read the response (that's why the spoilers)
Spoiler!
Space horses were in ROS. I thought they made Poe into a complete idiot in TLJ. That whole first scene with the prank call to Hux and destroying the dreadnaught was literally written by a person who ate paint chips.
While Luke had a nice redemptive scene in the end leading up to it, I had to believe that Luke had been infected by a brain parasite, that he somehow got rid of in the end.
Finn was ok, but most of his character development happened in TFA, and he became the whooo guy in TLJ and a piece of furniture in ROS, which is too bad because a defecting stormtrooper could have been an incredibly strong character idea. It was jarring how disconnected that movie was from TFA. And it was even more amazing how in a desparate effort to repair the damage done, the line in ROS was pretty much forget the past, you know the movie that Rian made, oh and here some poorly done mega fan service.
They threw away the who are Rey's parents, they put in that mirror scene in the cave that was completely meaningless. Yeah Space Leia was bad. Hux who was the start of a decent pocket villain in the first movie was made into an absolute a$$ in the second movie, and then given the dumbest end to a story line ever in the third movie.
The Canto Brite story line was just silly and meaningless over all, it didn't throw any color into the story, it was pretty much done to set up a joke of BB-8 as a slot machine in the end.
On top of it, the ending, with the kid with the broom and the resistance ring became a throw away. Even Ben/Kylo who could have been an interesting character in the end became another mustache twirling Snidley whiplash with a major temper control issue.
Mandalorian is a far superior piece of work in terms of plot line, consistent story and frankly character development. As well when comparing the world building between the ST and the Mandalorian you can't because the world in the ST was literally hit with a hammer in the second movie and smashed into pieces
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Good episode, my boy 14 (yrs old) screamed with Joy when Luke showed up.
I am still flummoxed by the stupidity of Storm Troopers, is there a more poorly trained or tactic executing bunch of dumb dumbs in cinema history. It would be nice to see some type of resistance put up by them.
Also, and this really bugged me for some reason, Fett’s henchmen dodged a blaster shot while they were moving through the ship. It was clearly meant to happen. The camera is focused on her and she move leans back as the shot goes past then she leaned forward and shoots the Storm Trooper. Ugh
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When the dark troopers walked up to the blast door, I thought they were gonna whip out rad cutting beams or turn their arms into saws/drills. It was hilarious that their plan was to just punch the crap out of the door like rock em sock em robots.
Related to that, it really diminished their menace when Luke was able to breeze right through them as if they were Phantom Menace roger roger droids. Their armour is blaster proof and even Mando’s darts can’t penetrate, so their bodies should have provided just a bit more resistance to saber strikes. And they didn’t try anything else other than just using their firearms. It would have been nice if at least one of them did something different, like attempt to use muscle, or its jets to gain the high ground.
Still kicks ass though. I never liked the Vader hallway as much as everyone else does, so this gives me the f-yeahs I’ve been missing.
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I also don't get Everyones take on TLJ. It's objectively the best of the sequel movies,
The Force Awakes was fan fiction, it wasn't a stand alone original narrative. It was what it was I was happy with it but there was no reason for that movie to exist.
The Return of Skywalk is almost prequels bad, I've had it on my list on Disney+ for a year and it still remains the only Star Wars movie I have only watched once, I've tried a couple of times get 2 or 3 minutes in and decide it's not worth it. The just did everything wrong, The grand army coming out of nowhere was frustrating, going back to a dead villain rather than the villain they spent two movies building up, the horses on the deck of a star destroyer. I've only watched it once but from memory was all bad, (I think the only people to blame are fan boys like Captain Crunch they didn't give TLJ a fair reading because it wasn't exactly what they expected, they got into JJs head that he was great and Rian was terrible, and when you start telling writer directors they are great and they can ignore other aspects of the universe they are engaging with this is the garbage you get).
How the heel was the Last Jedi supposed to treat Luke, he ran away and hid when a weakened Empire was re-emerging. This wasn't Obi-Wan choosing to protect children instead of fight, this wasn't an aged Yoda who had been defeated and went into hiding from an Empire that was ascendant. This was Mary-Sue Luke, who blew up the Death Star his first day in the rebellion, or surviving his first full fledged fight with a sith that he wasn't ready over, hitting the first bit of adversity in his life (omg your teenage nephew doesn't like you, congrats you and 70% of other uncles) giving up. That's where the text starts, and it's Star Wars, so what do you do, go back to your routes rip of Samurai tropes, have an disgruntled old master (now luke) sitting on a mountain that needs to redeem himself by being pulled back into action by an eager young upstart. Luke's story was exactly what Star Wars demanded.
It's time for fan boys to stop blaming Disney or Rian or whoever and take responsibility for shouting down that trilogy until it became a muddled mess.
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I liked the hardened nature of their armor, but I was hoping there would be a beskar connection to them.
At the end of the day, they're droids, not creative thinkers, and not immune to Force Crush.
Part of what happened just showed how powerful Force Users are compared to ordinary people. We saw it with Vader against ordinary troopers, and we saw it with Luke against super soldiers that were terrifying to ordinary people.
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Also, ion cannons continue to be the most overpowered and underutilized weapons in all of Star Wars. At least in the x-wing games, you had to deplete a ship’s shields before the cannons could disable it, but all the live action examples have them crippling a ship of any size with one or two shots, shields or not. Hell even after they disabled the shuttle Boba orders them to lower their shields, as if the ion shots went right through them.
Forget hyperspace ramming, fans should be asking why the rebels/resistance don’t just replace at least half of all laser cannons and turbolasers with ion.
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heh, Ion cannons were suppossed to ignore shields and scramble systems they were a capture weapon. In Tie Fighter you had to use them to capture B-Wings, but you did have to batter down their shields before using them.
However in Empire strikes back two shots would scramble a star destroyer. In Wing Commander they made an appearance as leech guns, and they were very effective.
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I also don't get Everyones take on TLJ. It's objectively the best of the sequel movies,
The Force Awakes was fan fiction, it wasn't a stand alone original narrative. It was what it was I was happy with it but there was no reason for that movie to exist.
The Return of Skywalk is almost prequels bad, I've had it on my list on Disney+ for a year and it still remains the only Star Wars movie I have only watched once, I've tried a couple of times get 2 or 3 minutes in and decide it's not worth it. The just did everything wrong, The grand army coming out of nowhere was frustrating, going back to a dead villain rather than the villain they spent two movies building up, the horses on the deck of a star destroyer. I've only watched it once but from memory was all bad, (I think the only people to blame are fan boys like Captain Crunch they didn't give TLJ a fair reading because it wasn't exactly what they expected, they got into JJs head that he was great and Rian was terrible, and when you start telling writer directors they are great and they can ignore other aspects of the universe they are engaging with this is the garbage you get).
How the heel was the Last Jedi supposed to treat Luke, he ran away and hid when a weakened Empire was re-emerging. This wasn't Obi-Wan choosing to protect children instead of fight, this wasn't an aged Yoda who had been defeated and went into hiding from an Empire that was ascendant. This was Mary-Sue Luke, who blew up the Death Star his first day in the rebellion, or surviving his first full fledged fight with a sith that he wasn't ready over, hitting the first bit of adversity in his life (omg your teenage nephew doesn't like you, congrats you and 70% of other uncles) giving up. That's where the text starts, and it's Star Wars, so what do you do, go back to your routes rip of Samurai tropes, have an disgruntled old master (now luke) sitting on a mountain that needs to redeem himself by being pulled back into action by an eager young upstart. Luke's story was exactly what Star Wars demanded.
It's time for fan boys to stop blaming Disney or Rian or whoever and take responsibility for shouting down that trilogy until it became a muddled mess.
ROS was backed into a corner by TLJ. I think a lot of the disappointment is that TFA setup a lot of stuff, it was all made irrelevant in TLJ, and ROS had nowhere to go, other than trying to create a 3 movie arc from the setup of one, teardown of another, and trying to write a conclusion. It was doomed to fail, and a lot of that is the fault of the decision made in TLJ.
I'd love to her a conversation of what Rian had envisioned was going to happen in the last installment, because he really didn't leave much to work with, and had rearranged the relationships built in TFA. So it's not so much that TLJ was full of bad ideas in isolation(thoguh there were many), but it destroyed any semblance of a rational logical story. You can't just kill of the bad guy in the second act, and expect it to make sense in the 3rd. TFA may have been fan service, but at least it left pieces to build on.
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ROS was backed into a corner by TLJ. I think a lot of the disappointment is that TFA setup a lot of stuff, it was all made irrelevant in TLJ, and ROS had nowhere to go, other than trying to create a 3 movie arc from the setup of one, teardown of another, and trying to write a conclusion. It was doomed to fail, and a lot of that is the fault of the decision made in TLJ.
I'd love to her a conversation of what Rian had envisioned was going to happen in the last installment, because he really didn't leave much to work with, and had rearranged the relationships built in TFA. So it's not so much that TLJ was full of bad ideas in isolation(thoguh there were many), but it destroyed any semblance of a rational logical story. You can't just kill of the bad guy in the second act, and expect it to make sense in the 3rd. TFA may have been fan service, but at least it left pieces to build on.
Snoke wasn't the bad guy in TLJ he was a foil, to allow Kylo bolster his bad cred. It's the exact opposite of the originals where Vader looked like the big bad early on, and softened later as he became redeemable and the Emperor was the real big bad. When your making sequels things that look the same but are the opposite are very good, you want it to mirror the old story, but if your not doing something different, why bother.
The last movie had limitless possibilities because they broke out of the pacing of the original trilogy. IMO it was setup for a final one on one show down, absent the old masters, absent the fleets. I think TLJ would have been very strong narratively, if there had been an ending to the trilogy where the resistance had nobody left to fight and the order had nobody left to fight, but Rey still had to put Kylo down to make it all stop, it would have left the galaxy looking to a different future not the empire, not the new republic. It would have left the galaxy in a very different place the RoTJ, you would have would have had the battle end without remnants of the empire floating around re-amassing into the First Order. Leaving the galaxy in a different place should have been the purpose of making another trilogy. Now we're just in a place where lots of people are happy to join up with whatever crazy dark side crap the next clone of the emperor comes up with, and lots of people are waiting to fight back, and they could just make another sequel trilogy all over again that would fall flat again, unless they are brave enough to try and tell a different story.
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Yup, here we go again, round and round in circles with the same arguments that have been discussed ad nauseam since 2017. If you guys are gonna constantly piss and moan about the sequel trilogy, can you please take it to the other SW thread?
The only issue I had with the girl team was that they erased that other Mandalorian guy that was working with them (and presumably a trusted member of their team for years) with no explanation. Doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t bring him along for the ultimate mission they’ve all been building towards. It was clearly done just for a “girl power” scene.
I dont even care about that, Cara and Koska were great. I dont know if its the writing or if they're just bad actors, but Bo Katan and her sidekick were painful to watch. Literally not only the weakest link in that episode but the only bad part of it.
Although, and fine I know this is nit-picky...how does a laser-rifle 'jam?' It doesnt seem like it would have a lot of moving parts.
Either way, as much as I complain, I loved it. This is the best Star Wars I've seen in forever and it was AMAZING.
But they can launch Bo Katan and her buddy out an airlock.
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I dont even care about that, Cara and Koska were great. I dont know if its the writing or if they're just bad actors, but Bo Katan and her sidekick were painful to watch. Literally not only the weakest link in that episode but the only bad part of it.
Although, and fine I know this is nit-picky...how does a laser-rifle 'jam?' It doesnt seem like it would have a lot of moving parts.
Either way, as much as I complain, I loved it. This is the best Star Wars I've seen in forever and it was AMAZING.
But they can launch Bo Katan and her buddy out an airlock.
I believe this has been addressed by the first response, as you may remember it happening in A new Hope:
