[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

...The organization really failed on all counts with his handling. Certainly Sven has to take some of the blame as well, but he was never given a regular shot in the top 6 with Pp time...bizarre that you wouldn't want to see what kind of asset you had.

Really? Baertschi got plenty of pp time and had a regular shift in the top six in Adirondack. How did he do?

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Burke calling him out before the season had even started is still a head scratcher to me.

Yeah, me too. But I think it had way more to do with sending a message to the fanbase than it did to the player. We don't know what was or was not said behind closed doors, so it is really difficult to pass judgement, I think.

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Hartley continually giving other prospects more ice time ahead of him was also puzzling.

This was absolutely the least puzzling thing about this past season and the Flames handling of Baertschi. In fact, there were several posters who pointed out in both of his call-ups this year that he was receiving preferential treatment, and did not deserve the NHL time ahead of some of the other prospects who were outperforming him,

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Both clearly could not get over their initial impression of him, and refused to give him a chance....still find it strange when they've handled others so well.

Fundamentally disagree that Baertschi was not given a chance. He had lots of chances, but honestly, just never looked great this year—not in his time in the NHL, and not really in Adirondack either. He didn't look bad, but he also has not looked definitively better than several players vying for the same spots, like Jooris, Gaudreau, Granland, and Ferland.

Originally Posted by Red Menace

My guess is we will regret this move.

We might. But as of today, Flames fans and hockey ops have been waiting for three years to see him take demonstrable steps from the previous season, or even the last game. He hasn't really done that, and that is often a sign that it just isn't going to happen.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

As a matter of fact it would be swell if you didn't make stuff up. He got 4 shifts in the third period and ended that game with 10:12 of ice. 2 assists.

The following game he added another assist in the game and finished with 10:43. 5 shifts in the 3rd.

The next game he was rewarded with a whopping 7:10 of total ice time.

I never said he jumped to the top of the team in ice time. The 19 shifts he got that game were close the most all season, and the next game he got 16. His average was 14. His ice time in those two games was higher than average as well. He played more in all 3 periods than usual. If he was a better defender he would have gotten more.

That was more ice time, based on effort, than he'd beeen getting. And then his level of play dropped and so did his ice time.

Did you think Hartley would jump him from 10 to 18 minutes based on one game?

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Red John

They'll make every effort to see him succeed.

But they aren't going to keep him up if he's costing them hockey games with a better player pigeonholed in bottom six.

You have Sedins, Vrbata, Bonino and Higgins. That's the top six. The best bet for Baertschi is to unseat Higgins, who has hands of stone and is better suited to a bottom six role. But you're still hoping that a minor leaguer with 25 AHL points beats out a major leaguer with 27 NHL points.

This is to say absolutely nothing about the other intangibles Higgins provides that Baertschi cannot. Namely, defensive play.

Much like a heads-up race in poker, either side has the ability to still come out ahead when all is said and done in this deal, but the Flames statistically are ahead in terms of probability.

Canucks also have Shinkaruk who would probably be slotted ahead of Baertschi at this point.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Canucks also have Shinkaruk who would probably be slotted ahead of Baertschi at this point.

Under what metric?

Baertschi has outperformed Hunter at every level and it really hasn't been close at all.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Canucks also have Shinkaruk who would probably be slotted ahead of Baertschi at this point.

I don't think so. Shinkaruk has had a pretty forgettable rookie season. At this point Baertschi is definitely the better player.

[GioforPM]

The biggest trouble is going to be the defensive minutes a top 6er has to play, against really good opposition. That's why lots of top 6 lines include guys like Higgins, who can cover for the one dimensional elite guys. Many top lines are actually just 2 elite guys and a guy who can keep up, work the corners and play honest defence with them.

Sven might actually be more suited for a third line on a team rolling 2 middle lines that are roughly equal in offence.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I disagree. You keep telling me that he didn't play well, as you did many times in the PGT and during the game itself, but myself and others saw him play very well.

So there's no point in arguing if it's about what you saw versus what I saw.

If after 4 years of being in the organization all we can say is that he had a great emergency recall and ONE game where posters even remember his presence, the writing was on the wall. Whenever Sven played I zeroed in on him quite a bit and that is the only game I can remember coming away thinking he actually had a noticeable impact on the game. I did find it odd that he didn't play much in the third, but at that point Hartley likely just didn't trust him AS MUCH as he trusted other players at his disposal to hold the game. And given Sven's track record of inconsistency, it wasn't really a surprise.

As far as his treatment by the organization, I don't know how you can look at it like Sven didn't get his fair shake. He was kept up long after he should have been last season as ordered by Feaster (and evidenced by his immediate demotion upon Feaster's dismissal). Was also kept passed his due this year IMO. There were players sent down before him that arguably made just as good if not better cases to stick. And even during the season received a call-up which did not reflect his or other player's performances on the farm (ie he wasn't doing well, others were, and he was called up. Presumably to help him with his "confidence"). You can argue how Hartley used him once in the game, but I don't see how he played any better than any of the other wing options. And certainly not well enough to permanently displace any of them. Why would he use Sven when he has 6+ other guys who have given him no excuse to cut their ice time.

I liked Sven and was hoping he and Gaudreau could be a great 1-2 punch on the left side, but he just didn't show that he belonged above other prospects.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Canucks also have Shinkaruk who would probably be slotted ahead of Baertschi at this point.

Shinkaruk has been brutal. There's no way he would slot in ahead of Baertschi.

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

Anytime you trade a Mid First Rounder whom at least showed some 'promise' in the NHL, for a mid Second Rounder you lose.

But all excuses removed leaving YYC, Sven is going to have to prove his mishandling and produce. If he doesn't, this goes back on the flames drafting dept. ala. Feaster, Wesibrod, Button and yet another questionable / bad first round selection in Calgary's history.

[Poe969]

so we suck for trading him and we sucked for drafting him. Got it.

[GioforPM]

"Anytime you trade a Mid First Rounder whom at least showed some 'promise' in the NHL, for a mid Second Rounder you lose."

No matter what the actual outcome is after making the pick? Nope.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I never said he jumped to the top of the team in ice time. The 19 shifts he got that game were close the most all season, and the next game he got 16. His average was 14. His ice time in those two games was higher than average as well. He played more in all 3 periods than usual. If he was a better defender he would have gotten more.

That was more ice time, based on effort, than he'd beeen getting. And then his level of play dropped and so did his ice time.

Did you think Hartley would jump him from 10 to 18 minutes based on one game?

You said, "he got a fair bit of time in the 3rd." He had 4 shifts in the 3rd. I don't believe that is a fair bit of time.

Funny, Sven only had 5 games this season where he got more than 10 mins of ice. 10:49, 11:02, 10:12, 10:43, and his last game as a Flame on Feb 2 13:17.

10 mins of ice is nothing, yet all his points (4 assists) came from those games. Imagine what may have happened if he was given just a little more ice time.

He was never put into a position to succeed. He was never put into a position to sink or swim. He was never given the green light to show what he was or wasn't. Makes no sense to me at all.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

Anytime you trade a Mid First Rounder whom at least showed some 'promise' in the NHL, for a mid Second Rounder you lose.

But all excuses removed leaving YYC, Sven is going to have to prove his mishandling and produce. If he doesn't, this goes back on the flames drafting dept. ala. Feaster, Wesibrod, Button and yet another questionable / bad first round selection in Calgary's history.

Don't really think it was a bad first rounder.

Nobody drafted after him in the first round has been any better or looks like they will be any better.

In the year after the draft he was a top 10 prospect in the world.

The issue here comes down to the player and the team screwing up his development, and their relationship.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In the end I think Baertschi is an example of how to waste a top prospect, from both the prospect and team perspective.

Baertschi...entitlement issues, poor attitude etc

Feaster...rushing a prospect, making him the heir apparent

Burke...not understanding Sven and criticizing him in the media

Hartley...not giving a player the ability to sink/swim, too short of a leash

Looking back this was handled poorly by all involved and it is a shame because the kid looked like a true blue chipper as a 19 year old. I actually felt like Treliving was trying to fix the sins of the past, in the public eye at least, and in the end the relationship was just too fractured to save.

No need to over-think it. Baertschi couldn't translate his junior game to the pros. Some guys just don't pan out.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

No need to oversimplify it. Baertschi could have been handled better from the get-go.

[DoubleF]

In a weird way, I feel like style wise, Barts was a pick we needed/wanted in the Iggy era. But once that era ended and Gio's started, he was a bit of a misfit?

The reason I think this, is because I think a big problem with Barts was style wise, ours didn't match him. It confused him, made his output lower which lowered his confidence (amongst other things) and was a vicious cycle of a downward spiral. Some players will do well, and I'm guessing management seeks these players (ie: Russell). I think Barts is a left over of a spare part of a machine that no longer exists in our org (And not even a rare part of that machine to boot). I'm sure other teams will find a way to use him.

Best of luck to him. I loved the seemingly swagger attitude he had in his last call up and hoped to see more. (Maybe he knew the decision then and a weight was lifted off, who knows). Overall, I'm guessing it was all a good deci-sven.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

You said, "he got a fair bit of time in the 3rd." He had 4 shifts in the 3rd. I don't believe that is a fair bit of time.

Funny, Sven only had 5 games this season where he got more than 10 mins of ice. 10:49, 11:02, 10:12, 10:43, and his last game as a Flame on Feb 2 13:17.

10 mins of ice is nothing, yet all his points (4 assists) came from those games. Imagine what may have happened if he was given just a little more ice time.

He was never put into a position to succeed. He was never put into a position to sink or swim. He was never given the green light to show what he was or wasn't. Makes no sense to me at all.

4 shifts is more than he usually got on the third. That's my point. He was played until they needed to tighten up defensively.

10 minutes of ice time is a 6th of the game. It's just around half of a first line guy, and about 75% of a second line guy. Sven was not earning more ice time.

I can easily imagine what would have happened with more ice time because I saw what happened with what he got. Multiply that result by the additional minutes. I also saw what Jooris and Gaudreau and Granlund did with the same amount of time to start with.

Sven was put in a position to sink or swim and he sank. You can blame the coaches and management all you want, but a player's success is usually based on the player.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Where ru Chris O'Sullivan

Anytime you trade a Mid First Rounder whom at least showed some 'promise' in the NHL, for a mid Second Rounder you lose.

But all excuses removed leaving YYC, Sven is going to have to prove his mishandling and produce. If he doesn't, this goes back on the flames drafting dept. ala. Feaster, Wesibrod, Button and yet another questionable / bad first round selection in Calgary's history.

What if the second round pick turns into a superstar?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What if the second round pick turns into a superstar?

You lost and broke even. Therefore, technically, you still lost.

[GioforPM]

On a team with offensive styles as varied as Hudler, Johnny, Monahan, Backlund,Jones, Colborne, Bouma and Raymond (and Glencross), what was the Flames style that so baffled Sven and didn't match his game?