#occupy<insertlocalehere>

[Resolute 14]

Not to mention...

http://www.pixiq.com/article/occupy-...n-videographer
Occupy protesters threaten, assault man who video taped them

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...DDLETopOpinion
Cart owners in San Diego given death threats, had their food carts vandalized with blood and urine

http://www.portlandonline.com/police...ontent_id=2578
Store owner in Portland threatened for running out of breadsticks

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...#ixzz1dENvUB95
Shop in New York threatened for not providing protesters with all of the free stuff they are "entitled to"

And more. It seems that threatening those who wont give them free stuff is a very common theme with these crowds.

[mikey_the_redneck]

I came across this news and wanted to share it here since this is a protest thread.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...operation.html

"Police organizations across the country co-operated to spy on community organizations and activists in what the RCMP called one of the largest domestic intelligence operations in Canadian history, documents reveal."

"The two undercover officers at the core of the Crown's case were just a small part of a Canada-wide operation to spy on activist groups in the lead-up to the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, the G20 summit in Toronto and the G8 meeting in Huntsville, Ont."

"In all, the RCMP-led joint intelligence group — a conglomeration of federal, provincial and municipal police tasked with G8/G20 reconnaissance — employed more than 500 people at its peak, the records show. The group ran undercover operations, recruited confidential informants and liaised with domestic and foreign governments, law enforcement agencies and even corporations."

Awesome, we are becoming Amerika!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I don't think Americans "asked" for Congress to bail out the banks. The bankers convinced Congress with fear tactics to pass the bail out.

The whole banking fiasco has been going on for a long time now. It didn't start in 2008. Congress created the rules that allowed the banks to ask for the bailout long before 2008. So yes, in a sense the 'people' at the very least allowed Congress to do what they have been doing by constantly sending the same corrupt morons back into office again and again.

Barney Frank is retiring, and the Boston Herald ran a rather scathing article on him the other day. Said that it is ridiculous that he got elected year after year WHILE running the House Financial Committee or whatever the hell it was called, DESPITE some obvious evidence that he was using his position to benefit friends and family.

The people are responsible for the government they elect.

I don't think Americans "asked" the military industrial complex to spend trillions of dollars to invade most of the Middle East to hunt down Bin Laden.

60% approval for the War in Iraq at the start, and probably even higher approval for the War in Afghanistan suggests otherwise. Americans are outraged by the SOPA bill, but not by a $700 billion dollar military budget.

Did Americans "ask" for billions in "foreign aid" to be passed around the globe?

How many representatives have the American public sent to office that said they would reduce foreign aid? How many Americans call their public official and tell them they don't support sending billions to Saudi Arabia?

By and large Americans don't care about foreign aid.

Did Americans "ask" Donald Rumsfeld to inform them on Sept 10/01 that the Pentagon "misplaced" $2.3 trillion worth of funds? Of course the next day the whole world forgot about that....

Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I doubt Americans care about that.

They are abusing the power that the voters give them, and the system is set up so they don't pay any consequences.....

No, Americans keep sending the same corrupt fools back into office year after year and then complain when they don't get the services they demand.

The people are responsible for the government they elect.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Well for starters, yes the politicians de-regulated the banking sector. Doing that however, does not mean that we automatically bail them out when they fail? Congress people were intimidated into signing the bail-out bill, including threats of "total collapse" and "martial law" behind closed doors. There are c-span youtube videos with several people expressing their concern about this.

Barney Frank? Yeah........the guy had his boyfriend run a gay prositution ring out of a house he owned.

In hindsight of the Iraq war, everyone now knows that the public was flat out lied to about the weapons of mass destruction programs. The fear-mongering lies are what got people behind it. The media helped sell that one.

The Donald Rumsfeld press conference is on youtube also.

The political system itself is corrupt. It's run by banking oligarchs. The people have very little control of the government outside of voting.

"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy."

-Carroll Quigley (Bill Clintons mentor)

[troutman]

http://www.pitchfork.com/news/44782-...-the-movement/

The long list of artists showing support for the Occupy Wall Street movement continues to grow. Here are some more recent developments:

-- In solidarity with Occupy London, Massive Attack have launched "Occupy Radio" on Soundcloud. The page features mixes inspired by the movement from Massive Attack's 3D, ex-DFA member Tim Goldsworthy, and Horse Meat Disco, with more to come.

-- The Village Voice reports that a number of New York musicians are collaborating on an album to benefit Occupy Wall Street. TV on the Radio's Kyp Malone, former Liturgy drummer/current Guardian Alien member Greg Fox, and Oneida's Kid Millions, and others plan to record material together.

-- A number of big names have joined together for Occupy This Album, a compilation to benefit the movement, CNN reports. Included on the release, expected this winter, are Yo La Tengo, Devo, Ladytron, Lucinda Williams, and filmmaker Michael Moore, among many others.


[I'm sure many of you will be reminded of the Film Actors Guild in Team America]

[Itse]

Originally Posted by valo403

Apparently your google skills are poor.
Either the internet doesn't actually work in Finland or you went out of your way to bury your head in the sand. And having been to Finland I'm under the impression that the internet works just fine there. It took me literally 5 minutes and 3 searches to find that.

Thank you for that.

I didn't actually think of using the searchword "slashing", sorry. I looked for "stabbing", but mostly I was interested in the claim of rushing the police line, because the general behaviour of the protesters as a group is more interesting that anecdotal incidents. (To me at least.)

Oh, and since you propably didn't notice, there is an addition to the story about the stabbing you linked:

Though police initially believed the stabbing took place at the Occupy Portland camp, updated information showed Gray was assaulted at Tom McCall Waterfront Park and walked to the camp for help.

Basicly, what you posted is just another example of the camps being a place where people go to find help. Not the other way around. I'll get back to that...


I did find one more for "your case":
http://publicola.com/2011/11/07/woma...-seattle-camp/

I'm quoting a bit of it because I think it's an interesting showcase for how the question of "safety" on the occupy camps is a complicated question.

A report for the incident doesn’t clearly state that the woman was staying at the Occupy Seattle camp SCCC’s campus, but the woman had several blankets with her when she was arrested.

According to court records, the 20-year-old woman has previously been arrested for assault, prostitution, and unlawful imprisonment. She is being held at the King County Jail on $950 bail.

A police source tells PubliCola the camp at SCCC has become a magnet for Seattle’s homeless population, and some of the Occupy protesters haven’t taken too kindly to their presence at SCCC. However, because the school has given protesters permission to set up tents on campus, the department is reluctant to tell people they can or can’t stay in the encampment.

Instead, the source says, members of the camp have formed an ”unwelcoming committee” to make certain people feel, um, unwelcome at the encampment. We haven’t confirmed the existence of the committee or heard exactly how the “unwelcoming committee” operates, but we’re looking into it.

So it seems they are at least hinting that the woman was a bit of loose cannon, possibly homeless and at the camps for reasons unrelated to the occupy movement.

I admit, stuff like this does put into question the overall safety of the camps.

However, when we are talking about incidents like this, you could also claim that this woman could have just as well have made those threats anywhere else. Some homeless people might be dangerous.

Do the camps make the overall situation any worse, or do they actually make it better?

Here's another case:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-11-0...minor-injuries

No one knows why she chose to head to the camp at Justin Herman Plaza, roughly 2 1/2 miles away, and not the St. Francis Medical Center, which is just a little more than a half mile away.

Now, obviously, if you're "pro-occupy", this is your response:

"It is showing that this is not just helping the local community or the Occupy community, but a lot of people in San Francisco," he said. "We're filling a niche that is out there for homeless people who can't afford an ambulance or a ride to the hospital."

Is that true? Hard to say, but you can't exactly refute it out of hand, since this is not the only incident where someone has gone to the camps to seek for help.

Basicly in my opinion the non-violence of the protests has not been undermined by the few relatively minor incidents you found, considering the size of this whole thing (in time, space and number of people involved). I would need to see a lot more than this to start questioning whether or not these are non-violent protests.

And no rushing the police lines, which is very relevant considering overall police behaviour.

(EDIT: Also of note is that the occupy camps are not necessarily all the same, and a responsible police force should assess the threat presented with that in mind.)

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Itse

Thank you for that.

I didn't actually think of using the searchword "slashing", sorry. I looked for "stabbing", but mostly I was interested in the claim of rushing the police line, because the general behaviour of the protesters as a group is more interesting that anecdotal incidents. (To me at least.)

Oh, and since you propably didn't notice, there is an addition to the story about the stabbing you linked:
Basicly, what you posted is just another example of the camps being a place where people go to find help. Not the other way around. I'll get back to that...


I did find one more for "your case":
http://publicola.com/2011/11/07/woma...-seattle-camp/

I'm quoting a bit of it because I think it's an interesting showcase for how the question of "safety" on the occupy camps is a complicated question.

So it seems they are at least hinting that the woman was a bit of loose cannon, possibly homeless and at the camps for reasons unrelated to the occupy movement.

I admit, stuff like this does put into question the overall safety of the camps.

However, when we are talking about incidents like this, you could also claim that this woman could have just as well have made those threats anywhere else. Some homeless people might be dangerous.

Do the camps make the overall situation any worse, or do they actually make it better?

Here's another case:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-11-0...minor-injuries

Now, obviously, if you're "pro-occupy", this is your response:

Is that true? Hard to say, but you can't exactly refute it out of hand, since this is not the only incident where someone has gone to the camps to seek for help.

Basicly in my opinion the non-violence of the protests has not been undermined by the few relatively minor incidents you found, considering the size of this whole thing (in time, space and number of people involved). I would need to see a lot more than this to start questioning whether or not these are non-violent protests.

And no rushing the police lines, which is very relevant considering overall police behaviour.

(EDIT: Also of note is that the occupy camps are not necessarily all the same, and a responsible police force should assess the threat presented with that in mind.)

Quite different points than your "it didn't happen" stance previously. I don't thin anyone has ever claimed that these were overly violent encampments, but they had serious issues some of which involved violence.

Btw, the rushing police lines comes from the story (which appears to be a complete fabrication) involving the supposedly pregnant woman who was trying to push her way past the police lines. I've also seen a number of cases of protesters attempting to push past police lines in video taken from different sites.

[Itse]

For those who care about why people see this thing so differently, I think this article offers an interesting view:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmcqu...cupy-protests/


I'm paraphrasing here, because I think the general idea is better than the tone of it:

New York‘s renaissance of the last generation was built on peaceful, orderly streets and parks, the targeted arrests for the smallest crimes, and the commercialization of public space.

Hence the focus on “hygiene” and the grunginess of the protestors as pretexts for sweeping them out. This is a kind of paranoia about a loss of control – even though the actual inconvenience is quite limited.

It's an expression of the risk-avoidance that society now prizes.

This seems quite different from the 1960s, when the generational, class, and ethnic splits in society were more profound, and actual anarchy seemed a real possibility.

Polls show that, so far anyway, a majority of people sympathize with the protestors. As we sit and watch people get pepper-sprayed on our iPads, and protests grow, the public pressure to shift tactics is likely to grow with it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well for starters, yes the politicians de-regulated the banking sector. Doing that however, does not mean that we automatically bail them out when they fail? Congress people were intimidated into signing the bail-out bill, including threats of "total collapse" and "martial law" behind closed doors. There are c-span youtube videos with several people expressing their concern about this.

Again, this doesn't take away from my point. Congress did everything they did to make sure the bankers got away with screwing the public over, but the public has been sending these fools back to Washington for years. And this stuff has been going on for years.

The deregulation or lack of proper regulation started in the 70s. It has been widely documented since then, and the public, despite numerous 'crashes' along the way has never listened or said anything EVER about changing it. Nor have they ever attempted to change anything considering guys like Barney Frank have been re-elected numerous times.

Barney Frank? Yeah........the guy had his boyfriend run a gay prositution ring out of a house he owned.

It is way worse than that. His 'friends' were actively receiving beneficial treatments from Frank through his position as chairman of the House Financial Committee. Hell of it is, we KNEW it was happening, and his constituents still re-elected him.

In hindsight of the Iraq war, everyone now knows that the public was flat out lied to about the weapons of mass destruction programs. The fear-mongering lies are what got people behind it. The media helped sell that one.

True. I agreed with the Iraq War at the start as well based on the evidence that was given. But, Congress never made a real attempt to read the NIS report. Most of them barely skimmed it. So that same Congress, sent to Washington BY the people of the United States again didn't do their job leading to a multi-trillion dollar war that didn't benefit the US at all.

The political system itself is corrupt. It's run by banking oligarchs. The people have very little control of the government outside of voting.

I agree with the first part, although I would say that the banks aren't the only ones running the government, but I disagree with the second part. The people have been voting in the same people that are being controlled by 'corporate' America, so you can't possible say they have very little control. For all the people like Ron Paul, there are dozens of others like Frank who are corrupt to the bone. If those 'dozens' are voted out, people like Paul suddenly have a much bigger voice.

[valo403]

New York‘s renaissance of the last generation was built on peaceful, orderly streets and parks, the targeted arrests for the smallest crimes, and the commercialization of public space.

That's not the city I live in

[Itse]

Originally Posted by valo403

Quite different points than your "it didn't happen" stance previously. I don't thin anyone has ever claimed that these were overly violent encampments, but they had serious issues some of which involved violence.

Btw, the rushing police lines comes from the story (which appears to be a complete fabrication) involving the supposedly pregnant woman who was trying to push her way past the police lines. I've also seen a number of cases of protesters attempting to push past police lines in video taken from different sites.

Accepted.

Specifically I was saying that I would be "calling BS" if there's nothing to show for the claims. It was an intentional provocation. You found something for me and I'm actually sincere in the thanks, despite the sarcastic tone. No real offense meant.

I did honestly try to find something, and I was honestly interested in what other people see, because the claims contrasted with my view of what's going on. I wanted to know what other people base their opinions on.

In my opinion it's still a hyperbole description of the campers, but that's a point of view, and we're not at court here.

As to rushing the police lines... even if we were standing side-by-side when that happens, we might still have a different idea of what's going on. And we'd propably describe it differently.

For me "rushing the line" implies trying break through police blockades in large, organized groups, often with the use of equipment like home-made shields and mattresses (as a protection from the police). This is something that is considered "non-violent" by what would propably be called "professional rioters" by some on this board and everyone on the Vancouver police force. Think "Black Bloc". Or, you can do it in violent protests.

In any case, rushing the police line is not usually a spontaneous thing. It can occur spontaneously if the crowd is desperate enough for some reason. But mostly people don't rush cops in crowd control mode.

Groups doing something like that look and behave very different from the occupy protesters. It would imply a level and style of organization different from what the image of the camps are. These are not that kind of protests, and that's interesting IMO.

The occupy-protests are a new thing. There's new kinds of people and groups involved, new tactics, new ways of organizing. It has a lot of the old in it, but I'd call it an interesting evolution.

But of course, I'm kind of into this stuff

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well for starters, yes the politicians de-regulated the banking sector. Doing that however, does not mean that we automatically bail them out when they fail? Congress people were intimidated into signing the bail-out bill, including threats of "total collapse" and "martial law" behind closed doors. There are c-span youtube videos with several people expressing their concern about this.

Barney Frank? Yeah........the guy had his boyfriend run a gay prositution ring out of a house he owned.

In hindsight of the Iraq war, everyone now knows that the public was flat out lied to about the weapons of mass destruction programs. The fear-mongering lies are what got people behind it. The media helped sell that one.

The Donald Rumsfeld press conference is on youtube also.

The political system itself is corrupt. It's run by banking oligarchs. The people have very little control of the government outside of voting.

"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy."

-Carroll Quigley (Bill Clintons mentor)

When you run your country's economy on a heavily indebted fiat model you do have to bail out the financial sector and do everything in your power to prop up its teetering wreck, in much the same way if you use a string of visa cards to pay each others bill off you may know its stupid and will eff you in the end but in reality not paying off the next card in line will cause your whole economy to crash and burn.

So yes, the consequense of not bailing out the banks in '08 would have been an utter collapse of the US economy, mass (as in 25% or more) unemployment civil unrest etc. Had the financial sector collapsed the immediate consequense would have been the Feds, the states and the municipalities losing any ability to borrow money, pretty much all public services, schools police fire would have ground to a halt, soldiers would have gone unpaid, pensioners would have starved.

The US's level of deficit finance means that any tightening of the money supply will mean a catalysmic level of fiscal belt tightening in about a month.

[Cowperson]

Pretty funny memo below from The Strategy Committee of "The Upper Ones" offering advice on how to adapt to "The Lower 99's":

The conclusion is the Upper One's should "Lever Up, Drop Out" - no doubt a stylized adaptation of the late 1960's hippy mantra of "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ael-lewis.html

Cowperson

[CaptainCrunch]

Leader of Occupy Buffalo gets caught in a fairly odious lie

Claims that he served all over the world, fought in Afghanistan, got wounded basically got hooked on prescription meds and needed psychiatric help to get over his PTSD.

Big stinky liar.

http://www.armywtfmoments.com/occupy...litary-service

[Resolute 14]

Tim Johnson gave up baseball to join Occupy, eh?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Tim Johnson gave up baseball to join Occupy, eh?

It's been awhile since I've heard a Tim Johnson joke!

[J epworth]

Occupy Vancouver now trying to block the ports in Vancouver, saw the news this morning, only seems about 5 people there but apparently they have a big protest planned for noon PST today. Seems about on line with their crazy so far.

VANCOUVER - Protesters say they are blocking off the Clark Drive entrance as an attempt to educate Vancouver's longshoremen about labour dispute in Longview, Wash. between longshoremen there and the EGT Grain company.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Occ...#ixzz1gL9IoD2o

If I was one of those longshoremen, I don't know what would be stopping me from going to work. I think I would just lay on the horn, go about 4km/hr and just keep driving.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

If I was one of those longshoremen, I don't know what would be stopping me from going to work. I think I would just lay on the horn, go about 40km/hr and just keep driving.

Fixed your post.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

Occupy Vancouver now trying to block the ports in Vancouver, saw the news this morning, only seems about 5 people there but apparently they have a big protest planned for noon PST today. Seems about on line with their crazy so far.

VANCOUVER - Protesters say they are blocking off the Clark Drive entrance as an attempt to educate Vancouver's longshoremen about labour dispute in Longview, Wash. between longshoremen there and the EGT Grain company.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Occ...#ixzz1gL9IoD2o

If I was one of those longshoremen, I don't know what would be stopping me from going to work. I think I would just lay on the horn, go about 4km/hr and just keep driving.

Its part of a move today to shut down ports up and down the North American west coast, part of a desire to stop global trade and therefore hurt corporate profits.

About 200 at the Port of Long Beach in Los Angeles right now. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...the-ports.html

This seems even sillier than perpetual camping in terms of helping the 99%.

Cowperson

[CaptainCrunch]

The Union in Vancouver is not onboard with it, nor are the workers, I think this is a stupid hill for Occupy Vancouver to die on.

At the end of the day, keeping workers from their jobs is not what the Occupy movement should be doing.

The average pay for a longshoreman in Canada is about 95k, the average salary for a longshoreman in the states is about $120k, they are among the highest paid blue collar workers in either country, so Occupy is not making sense here.

They get great union protection, a very good salary and very good benefits.