The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

This comment really pisses me off, this is the attitude that Johnson has had the entire time. Blaming the fans for their reactions versus himself for lazy story telling. I've been defending Last Jedi since it came out but I can't defend him. This is Star Wars, how the hell did you think people would react?

Also I don't think Chewie ever dies, he is one character they can keep re casting for years without anyone ever knowing or having to risk enraging the internet with CGI recreations

Well . . . he did die in Legends when they dropped a moon on his

Personally if this is a true reboot or disnification of the GFFA by TPTB, then I think there's a possibility that all of the old Star Wars characters will pass the torch and vanish before the end of 9.

There's no point for C3PO if Leia goes, R2D2 really doesn't have a role with Luke being gone, and BB-8 has replaced him.

Chewie's role is basically as a standing comedy piece now and clearly Rey no longer needs a guardian. I would expect that if they get rid of Leia, then Chewie will go at her side, which would be a nice way to end his character.

Fin - "Leia's gone"
Poe - "Yeah and Chewie with her"
Fin - "At least he died doing what he loved"
Rey - "Getting Shot?"
Fin - "No defending Han Solo's wife til the end"

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Chewie's role is basically as a standing comedy piece now and clearly Rey no longer needs a guardian. I would expect that if they get rid of Leia, then Chewie will go at her side, which would be a nice way to end his character."

I actually like the Rey/Chewie partnership, and how she's essentially taken over from Han as the Falcon's new owner. I hope they keep Chewie around for the last film.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Did you need to know things about the Emperor before Vader killed him to make it significant?

We found out everything we needed to know about the Emperor in this dialoug:

Governor Tarkin:
The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.
General Tagge:
But that's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Governor Tarkin:
The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

We know he is in charge, he was presumably head of the council that governed over something called the Old Republic, and that he was powerful enough and had the means to dissolve any opposing government. This took all of 20 seconds of screen time, and tells the audience all they really need to know.

With Snoke we didn't even get that kind of info, and it is far more important because we aren't diving into an unknown universe like we did with the original trilogy. The audience expects some details between when we last saw our Jedi friends celebrating the downfall of the enemy, to now when an entire new evil empire has arrived. If they could have pulled it off in 20 seconds of dialoug, then that would have been all the better.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its funny because it was clear that when George wrote a New Hope he didn't have an idea of what Palpatine was.

Palpatine is Not a Sith Lord. Also, Not Even in Charge
In the film, an Imperial officer named General Tagge (didn’t even have to look that up) is moderately freaked out upon hearing that the “senate” has been dissolved. “How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?” he worries. Well, in the prologue to the novel, the Emperor doesn’t. In a super-brief introductory section of the book (which claims to be taken from something called “The Journal of the Whills”) the death of the Old Republic and rise of the Empire is summarized quickly. Most interestingly, the rise of Palpatine from senator to President and then Emperor dovetails neatly with the events of the movie prequels. That is, until this casual assertion:

“Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.”

Palps is most certainly not a Sith Lord, nor does he even seem all that evil. Instead, he’s more like some creepy historical politician, like a Caesar being betrayed by a bunch of boot-licking Brutuses. Certainly not the cackling, all-knowing lightning-shooting guy we know so well. Also, how do we feel about the fact that the opening lines of the first ever item in the epic Star Wars franchise contains the phrase “boot-lickers?”

BTW just for fun I thought for any of you that were interested I would throw up the PDF of the Original Story. The Star Wars.

http://maddogmovies.com/almost/scrip..._third9-75.pdf

Beyond the fact that Luke Starkiller live on Utapa, The Imperial Capital is Alderaan and Grand Moff Tarkin is a rebel leader, there are some similarities

Oh and there are three Sith Lords and Ben survives the fight with Vader.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

We found out everything we needed to know about the Emperor in this dialoug:

We know he is in charge, he was presumably head of the council that governed over something called the Old Republic, and that he was powerful enough and had the means to dissolve any opposing government. This took all of 20 seconds of screen time, and tells the audience all they really need to know.

With Snoke we didn't even get that kind of info, and it is far more important because we aren't diving into an unknown universe like we did with the original trilogy. The audience expects some details between when we last saw our Jedi friends celebrating the downfall of the enemy, to now when an entire new evil empire has arrived. If they could have pulled it off in 20 seconds of dialoug, then that would have been all the better.

The question is whose failure was it? To me this should have been a piece of Dialog between Ren and Hux in Abrams movie. Instead Abrams decided to play "lost" with mysteries within mysteries within Luke's lightsaber. I find that many of the criticisms of the Last Jedi are really criticisms of TFA and caused by Abrams creating mystery without answers instead of character building.

[Fuzz]

They both share the guilt, really. More importantly though, I think it shows how Disney has failed by not having someone guiding these 3 movies. I'm kind of blown away that their biggest franchise really has no idea where it is going and they leave it up to each director. It's like an improv sketch where someone throws ideas out to keep the improv artists going for a couple hours. Sure, it's entertainment but it isn't necessarily good.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its funny because it was clear that when George wrote a New Hope he didn't have an idea of what Palpatine was.



BTW just for fun I thought for any of you that were interested I would throw up the PDF of the Original Story. The Star Wars.

http://maddogmovies.com/almost/scrip..._third9-75.pdf

Beyond the fact that Luke Starkiller live on Utapa, The Imperial Capital is Alderaan and Grand Moff Tarkin is a rebel leader, there are some similarities

Oh and there are three Sith Lords and Ben survives the fight with Vader.

Where is that block quote from? I didn't see it in the original script. And I don't really consider early drafts something to reference as things the audience should know. You have to consider a film is just that. Only what is there for the the audience to see, and what 98% of the viewing public knows about the Star Wars Universe is from what is in the films.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They both share the guilt, really. More importantly though, I think it shows how Disney has failed by not having someone guiding these 3 movies. I'm kind of blown away that their biggest franchise really has no idea where it is going and they leave it up to each director. It's like an improv sketch where someone throws ideas out to keep the improv artists going for a couple hours. Sure, it's entertainment but it isn't necessarily good.

Yeah I can agree with that, I just like to blame Abrams for his mystery over plot world building.

I think the new trilogy will be better just because it will be written by one guy in its entirety prior to shooting.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by GGG

Yeah I can agree with that, I just like to blame Abrams for his mystery over plot world building.

I think the new trilogy will be better just because it will be written by one guy in its entirety prior to shooting.

It's also apparently going to have a completely new story with new characters, and won't be based on anything Skywalker related, which will no doubt reduce the amount of nerd rage.

Despite all the criticisms surrounding Last Jedi (I enjoyed it myself), Rian Johnson is a good filmmaker, as evidenced by his previous work. Brick is easily one of my all-time favorite films, and Looper was pretty solid as well. I'm looking forward to seeing what he comes up with for this new trilogy.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by direwolf

It's also apparently going to have a completely new story with new characters, and won't be based on anything Skywalker related, which will no doubt reduce the amount of nerd rage.

I think this is the biggest cause of backlash against every new Star Wars film.

Fans seem to have some sense of ownership over the characters/story of the original Star Wars, and get upset when things don't go the way they envision.

The Originals are treated with kid gloves compared to everything that comes after. They weren't perfect pieces of cinema with godly story telling. They were fun movies with great special effects set in a unique setting for the time. There is lots of cringe worthy stuff in the first movies. A race of squid people named after Calamari? Ewoks.

I do wonder if Star Wars will persist or if Disney will burn it out for people. That's already two more trilogies announced after the current one.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I think this is the biggest cause of backlash against every new Star Wars film.

Fans seem to have some sense of ownership over the characters/story of the original Star Wars, and get upset when things don't go the way they envision.

The Originals are treated with kid gloves compared to everything that comes after. They weren't perfect pieces of cinema with godly story telling. They were fun movies with great special effects set in a unique setting for the time. There is lots of cringe worthy stuff in the first movies. A race of squid people named after Calamari? Ewoks.

I do wonder if Star Wars will persist or if Disney will burn it out for people. That's already two more trilogies announced after the current one.

No...The originals are vastly superior films to any of the new stuff. Many of the practical effects still look good today. Despite what people say about "cheesy" acting, the original series actually featured multiple academy award level winning actors: Alec Guinness, Harrison Ford, and James Earl Jones. As an adult, I don't really care for the Ewoks, but that's a common complaint.

The squid people, were actually a brilliant addition, as they highlight the diversity of the Rebel Alliance. The Empire is composed solely of old white guys with British accents, while the Rebel Alliance was composed (and lead) not only of individuals of different races and genders, but different species. This is an example of a well-written and contextual positive social message - as opposed to the blunt and crammed down your throat messages in most new films. As for the name, I doubt they called themselves Mon Calamari in their own language. It makes sense that humans would come up with a descriptive title for them. Their design is also brilliant, given technological limitations at the time (IE no CGI). They look about as alien as you could get, while still maintaining functionality and believability within the scenes.

The Prequels, I don't feel the need to explain why those were bad.
My problem with the latest movie is that it's full of bad writing and plot holes. They can't even write new material, they just copy the original series. I have no problem with the way things

Also, most SW fans really liked Rogue One and liked TFA. So the bias isn't against new material. TLJ is just a superficial and poorly written film, I don't know why people can't admit that. It's basically Pirates of the Caribbean in space, but we expect more from a Star Wars film.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Why won't everyone just admit that I'm right and they're wrong?!?!?!

So frustrating!

Yeah, good question. I too don't know why people won't just do that for you.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The original films were badly scripted, but plot wise and pacing wise, really quite strong. The things the characters did made sense, given who they were. The stuff that actually came out of their mouths was hit or miss (frequently a miss), but you can still make a good, entertaining film that way if the foundation and structure are solid.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Why won't everyone just admit that I'm right and they're wrong?!?!?!

So frustrating!

Yeah, good question. I too don't know why people won't just do that for you.

If that needs to end, so do the constant comments about people not liking the film being due to "expectations" or feelings of ownership of the series. This implies that the movie is good, and people just can't see that due people blinded by their own expectations.

If anything, the box office in China demonstrates the exact opposite. China doesn't really care about Star Wars and they have no fandom there. TLJ was a total flop, as the movie just wasn't good enough to support an audience.

Edit: Perhaps my statement should have been:

"TLJ is just a superficial and poorly written film, I don't know why people can't admit that others can perceive the movie that way."

[Inglewood Jack]

I too am sick of being told that I didn't enjoy TLJ only because of my fandom. I'm not some Captain Crunch-type Star Wars universe historian that is miffed because all my theories went in the toilet. there are plenty of legit reasons to be disappointed in this movie that don't involve the mythology at all.

for me it was because I was watching a bunch of incredibly dumb protagonists just barely outwit a bunch of even dumber antagonists. it was Buffalo Sabres vs. Arizona Coyotes on a galactic scale. who am I supposed to root for and why should I care if all our heroes have to do is not be as completely incompetent as their adversaries?

[blankall]

Even the critics who contributed to the 91% RT score, don't give the movie a pass (these were all from the front page of RT):

Fanatics will love it; for the rest of us, it's a tolerably good time.

When the salt settles, we are left with neither triumph nor tragedy; instead, it's one more chapter in the continuing saga, punctuated by a few moments of genuine awe.

Even if the stuffed-gills plot grew frustrating, I'm still looking forward to the next foray into a galaxy far, far away.

At two-and-a-half hours, with about nine separate cliffhanger endings, it's a bit long, but Johnson's keen visual sense, doses of humor and a couple of cameos buoy the film

There is just enough good material embedded in the excessive padding to appeal to our cravings for more Star Wars.

The music still feels fresh and Rian Johnson's film will please the fans with its wonderful visuals and abundance of action. But for me, there was something missing.

There's a lot to like in the new Star Wars film...But it is not, as so many are saying, either the best Star Wars movie ever nor even the best since The Empire Strikes Back.

I just find it very odd that people are pushing this point that it's a great movie and the only reason not to like it is that you're too involved in the fandom to let yourself go and enjoy it. The critics themselves are describing it as a mediocre film, that is still kind of fun. So it's basically an issue of whether you find it fun enough to ignore all the fundamental problems, not whether it's a great movie.

[direwolf]

Lol, feels like this thread just keeps going in circles with the same arguments over and over again.

Personally I enjoyed the movie quite a bit, and I'm eagerly looking forward to Episode IX. But I can certainly understand why other people may not have liked it. I've accepted the fact that Star Wars fans will never agree on anything regarding these films, especially the newer ones.

[Wastedyouth]

I get why some people were disappointed by TFA, because it was a rehash, but a damn well written one.

I do not get how anyone can like TLJ. The plot and dialogue are so terrible. Like Valerian bad.

Take Star Wars off this titles name and the movie would have bombed. Half way through the movie I just kept saying, WTF, why is this happening? What was the point of that?

The movie didn't go over my head, it was ####ing nonsense.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

I too am sick of being told that I didn't enjoy TLJ only because of my fandom. I'm not some Captain Crunch-type Star Wars universe historian that is miffed because all my theories went in the toilet. there are plenty of legit reasons to be disappointed in this movie that don't involve the mythology at all.

for me it was because I was watching a bunch of incredibly dumb protagonists just barely outwit a bunch of even dumber antagonists. it was Buffalo Sabres vs. Arizona Coyotes on a galactic scale. who am I supposed to root for and why should I care if all our heroes have to do is not be as completely incompetent as their adversaries?

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

I get why some people were disappointed by TFA, because it was a rehash, but a damn well written one.

I do not get how anyone can like TLJ. The plot and dialogue are so terrible. Like Valerian bad.

Take Star Wars off this titles name and the movie would have bombed. Half way through the movie I just kept saying, WTF, why is this happening? What was the point of that?

The movie didn't go over my head, it was ####ing nonsense.

On the other side of the coin, it is really weird to read this thread like it is the first and only movie in history to be objectively bad.

There's no discussion. Just a few people sabotaging this thread with the same complaints over and over and over and over.

And it wouldn't be so obnoxious and annoying if we were talking about Battlefield Earth or the prequels or some other movie that was universally hated by fans, critics and general movie goers alike. This one has quite a bit of praise. So much that you could probably say it was met with widespread positive reviews.

And the only response is "well it's dumb and anyone who doesn't realize it is just blind to the star wars brand". lol ok then.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by blankall

No...The originals are vastly superior films to any of the new stuff. Many of the practical effects still look good today. Despite what people say about "cheesy" acting, the original series actually featured multiple academy award level winning actors: Alec Guinness, Harrison Ford, and James Earl Jones. As an adult, I don't really care for the Ewoks, but that's a common complaint.

The squid people, were actually a brilliant addition, as they highlight the diversity of the Rebel Alliance. The Empire is composed solely of old white guys with British accents, while the Rebel Alliance was composed (and lead) not only of individuals of different races and genders, but different species. This is an example of a well-written and contextual positive social message - as opposed to the blunt and crammed down your throat messages in most new films. As for the name, I doubt they called themselves Mon Calamari in their own language. It makes sense that humans would come up with a descriptive title for them. Their design is also brilliant, given technological limitations at the time (IE no CGI). They look about as alien as you could get, while still maintaining functionality and believability within the scenes.

The Prequels, I don't feel the need to explain why those were bad.
My problem with the latest movie is that it's full of bad writing and plot holes. They can't even write new material, they just copy the original series. I have no problem with the way things

Also, most SW fans really liked Rogue One and liked TFA. So the bias isn't against new material. TLJ is just a superficial and poorly written film, I don't know why people can't admit that. It's basically Pirates of the Caribbean in space, but we expect more from a Star Wars film.

Alec Guinness didn't even like the original Star Wars, and Harrison Ford couldn't wait for Disney to kill off Solo and called the character boring.

So yes while they had great screen presence, they themselves didn't even like the movies.

The Empire in the original series was a very thinly veiled Third Reich rip off. I'm not sure the Mon Camalari where meant to be any positive social message as much as Lucas and friends wanted to make some cool looking aliens.

I like the original movies, but to me they are just mostly fun action/adventure movies the same as they are currently making.

If you read reviews online, you will see a lot of reviewers having outright temper tantrums over:

A: Luke Skywalker being different in the Last Jedi compared to the previous movies.
B: Social Justice Warriors/Politics/Mary Sue

I think its clear that Disney doesn't want every future Star Wars film to just be an homage to the original series/trip down nostalgia lane so is actively wrapping up the story lines of the original cast.

I'm fine with this as I don't have any kind of special connection to the original.

A lot of the criticisms of the film are about legitimate problems with the new movie, but I also feel that many of them are too wrapped up in being upset that Rian Johnson didn't cater to the original storyline.