CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Great question. A quick count on googlemaps seems to indicate about 1000 spots. Isn't parking $20? So up to $20,000 game or $800,000 per season at the max. Add in Hitmen games, Roughneck games, and all other Saddledome events and I'd hazard a guess that the Saddledome drives about $1.5M to $2.0M in parking revenue per year? I checked the Stampede's annual financial statements and it isn't specifically called out.

edit: whoops, forgot to count the new gravel lots on the north side of the 'Dome (i.e. the late great Victoria Park). Still, $1.5M - $2.0M still feels about right in my gut.

There is certainly more than 1000 parking spots. The parking lots north of the Dome (lot 1, 14,15,18 and 20 and behind Stampede HQ) have around 1000 spots alone.

The Stampede easily brings in tens of millions from parking every year. Not only do they have Flames, Hitmen and Roughnecks as regular events in the winter but they also have weekly events at the BMO Centre and other buildings and they have a few dozen concerts a year. They also get some daily revenue from casino parking.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Not to me. He has business interests in various parts of the world. For all we know, he'll spend just shy of 6 months here and 6 months +1 day there (or whatever the number is for residency purposes). All it tells me is that he has chosen a plan to save on personal tax. That is hardly a slight on the city in my view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Murray_Edwards

"Edwards has more at stake in the Canadian oil sands than possibly any other individual. His company, Canadian Natural Resources, has sketched out plans to spend $25 billion to turn the bitumen-bearing sand found in northern Alberta into barrels of crude oil. This media shy lawyer-turned financier also owns big stakes in Ensign Energy, Canada's second biggest oil services company, and Penn West, one of Canada's biggest energy trusts. He owns Resorts of the Canadian Rockies, which owns Fernie Alpine Resort, Kimberley Alpine Resort, Nakiska, Stoneham Mountain Resort, Mont-Sainte-Anne, and Kicking Horse Resort. He owns shares of the Calgary Flames hockey team. He owns over 30% of a management and holding company, Jovian Capital Corp.[5] Edwards is Chairman of the Board of Magellan Aerospace Corporation and the majority holder of Magellan Aerospace, owning ~76% of Common Shares."

His business profile looks almost exclusively Canadian to me. Sad to see that the guy who built his fortune ripping finite amounts of resources out of Canada turns tail and runs as soon as they ask for a little more from him.

[DirtyMike]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Murray_Edwards

"Edwards has more at stake in the Canadian oil sands than possibly any other individual. His company, Canadian Natural Resources, has sketched out plans to spend $25 billion to turn the bitumen-bearing sand found in northern Alberta into barrels of crude oil. This media shy lawyer-turned financier also owns big stakes in Ensign Energy, Canada's second biggest oil services company, and Penn West, one of Canada's biggest energy trusts. He owns Resorts of the Canadian Rockies, which owns Fernie Alpine Resort, Kimberley Alpine Resort, Nakiska, Stoneham Mountain Resort, Mont-Sainte-Anne, and Kicking Horse Resort. He owns shares of the Calgary Flames hockey team. He owns over 30% of a management and holding company, Jovian Capital Corp.[5] Edwards is Chairman of the Board of Magellan Aerospace Corporation and the majority holder of Magellan Aerospace, owning ~76% of Common Shares."

His business profile looks almost exclusively Canadian to me. Sad to see that the guy who built his fortune ripping finite amounts of resources out of Canada turns tail and runs as soon as they ask for a little more from him.

To me it looks like he's a guy whose invested heavily into the Canadian economy, employing literally tens of thousands of Canadians and generating billions for our economy. I really don't get the hate for Edwards, I think he's made a significantly positive impact on our country. There are infinitely worse number of people or organizations that could own the flames.

[Fire]

I don't blame him. He has made a lot of money, but he has also created a ton of jobs in Alberta and Canada. Now the leaches from the NDP and Liberal parties want him to pay significantly higher taxes to pay for their large deficits.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The Stampede easily brings in tens of millions from parking every year. Not only do they have Flames, Hitmen and Roughnecks as regular events in the winter but they also have weekly events at the BMO Centre and other buildings and they have a few dozen concerts a year. They also get some daily revenue from casino parking.

You missed the 10-day event, where even though most of the parking spaces are occupied by the actual festival, they proably turnover any remaining lots 2-3 times each day.

Those other events are immaterial to the conversation, though. Flames, Hitmen and Roughnecks and concerts are all that matters to this. Also, the lack of parking revenue would certainly have been considered in the deal when the Flames bought operating rights and in whatever annual fees they pay. If they got the parking revenue, then they'd be paying more for the rights to it...just as it factored in to the Stampede's contracts with the city.

I have the Stampede's rough revenue breakdown jotted down from years ago, so I'll see if I can dig it up (but again, that will be their total revenue, not Flames related revenue). At a quick glance on google, I see about 3000 spots that would be paid for on a busy night (not including Flames parkade and surrounding surface lots..I assume Flames operates those and gets the revenue, can anyone confirm?)...there's probably another 500-1000 spots mixed in there, but it's important to remember that there would be a few hundred non-paid vehicles, and it's possible that some spots are already occupied for other events at Stampede, and therefore unavailable to be sold as 'Flames related revenue'.

Anyways, let's throw out a generous 3500 number for 50 busiest nights (Flames, big concerts) and 2500 for Hitmen, Roughnecks and non-sell out shows..say 70 nights. I'll save showing my work, but that works out to $5.25M assuming $15 per vehicle. I think we could probably agree that 'Flames related parking revenue' falls somewhere between 3-6M per year...the middle point of $4.5M seems like a reasonable estimate.

And remember, this is just revenue. The expenses involved in running a giant parking lot are pretty low considering the revenue, but there are still staff costs, maintenance costs (short term, ie. snow removal, etc. and long-term, paving, painting), the electricity bill for street lights, etc. The Stampede has a park patrol/security dept. too...they certainly staff more on nights when 15000 people (many of which are drunk) spill out than dark nights...and some of those drunks inevitably lead to some vandalism/destruction of property (obviously not every night, but the 'wear and tear' costs of having that many people through your property every year are going to add up to 5-6 figures in the end). Lots of little costs that do add up... and that's not including the costs associated with the land itself (which are largely irrelevant here).


Also, let's remember the CNext plan currently has 2600? parking spots...and those wouldn't all be paid spots every night either, and the Flames would then be paying for all of the aforementioned expenses.

[sun]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Murray_Edwards

"Edwards has more at stake in the Canadian oil sands than possibly any other individual. His company, Canadian Natural Resources, has sketched out plans to spend $25 billion to turn the bitumen-bearing sand found in northern Alberta into barrels of crude oil. This media shy lawyer-turned financier also owns big stakes in Ensign Energy, Canada's second biggest oil services company, and Penn West, one of Canada's biggest energy trusts. He owns Resorts of the Canadian Rockies, which owns Fernie Alpine Resort, Kimberley Alpine Resort, Nakiska, Stoneham Mountain Resort, Mont-Sainte-Anne, and Kicking Horse Resort. He owns shares of the Calgary Flames hockey team. He owns over 30% of a management and holding company, Jovian Capital Corp.[5] Edwards is Chairman of the Board of Magellan Aerospace Corporation and the majority holder of Magellan Aerospace, owning ~76% of Common Shares."

His business profile looks almost exclusively Canadian to me. Sad to see that the guy who built his fortune ripping finite amounts of resources out of Canada turns tail and runs as soon as they ask for a little more from him.

Hah, which one of you guys edited his wikipedia page?:

"Famed for drafting both Patrik Laine and Jesse Puljujarvi in the 2016 NHL Entry Draft."

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by DirtyMike

To me it looks like he's a guy whose invested heavily into the Canadian economy, employing literally tens of thousands of Canadians and generating billions for our economy. I really don't get the hate for Edwards, I think he's made a significantly positive impact on our country. There are infinitely worse number of people or organizations that could own the flames.

Let's not pretend Edwards was some sort of pioneer. He was in the right place at the right time. If he didn't scoop up resource rights, others would have and pulled them out of the ground.

He has also been compensated handsomely for what he has done and is currently one of the top 10/20 richest people in Canada. But I guess that just isn't enough for Murray.

He can move to UK if he wishes - certainly within his rights. I would probably have less issue if Edwards owned a technology company or invented some piece of software, but pretty much all of his holdings have substantial effects on the Canadian landscape. CNRL, ski resorts, energy companies are all are impacting the environment have lasting effects on the land. If Murray wants to leave Canada so badly, he can, but he should also divest himself of his Canadian holdings as well and leave them to someone who is move invested in the long term state of this country and wants to pay their fair share.

Instead we have a guy who is asking for government handouts and won't contribute himself.

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Let's not pretend Edwards was some sort of pioneer. He was in the right place at the right time. If he didn't scoop up resource rights, others would have and pulled them out of the ground.

He has also been compensated handsomely for what he has done and is currently one of the top 10/20 richest people in Canada. But I guess that just isn't enough for Murray.

He can move to UK if he wishes - certainly within his rights. I would probably have less issue if Edwards owned a technology company or invented some piece of software, but pretty much all of his holdings have substantial effects on the Canadian landscape. CNRL, ski resorts, energy companies are all are impacting the environment have lasting effects on the land. If Murray wants to leave Canada so badly, he can, but he should also divest himself of his Canadian holdings as well and leave them to someone who is move invested in the long term state of this country and wants to pay their fair share.

Instead we have a guy who is asking for government handouts and won't contribute himself.

Does everyone forget that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a public owned building? I'm not getting into a pissing match in regards to tax sheltering on a personal tax level, but I don't blame him for protecting his money when over night the government tries to take an extra 8%.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Does everyone forget that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a public owned building? I'm not getting into a pissing match in regards to tax sheltering on a personal tax level, but I don't blame him for protecting his money when over night the government tries to take an extra 8%.

You are ok with people earning all their money in Canada and getting out of some of their tax debt by claiming residence elsewhere? A move that can only be done super rich people who can fly and live all over the globe.

[stone hands]

The owners are five billionaires(with a b)

It really saddens me when I hear people say that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a billion dollar project like its some kind of altruistic gesture.

This is their facility. I get that people love the flames but no thanks

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Does everyone forget that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a public owned building? I'm not getting into a pissing match in regards to tax sheltering on a personal tax level, but I don't blame him for protecting his money when over night the government tries to take an extra 8%.

A privledge for being allowed to live and work in this country. And profit off of it.

No one forgets the owners putting up 200 million on a project that is worth 1.5-2 billion when it is all said and done (yes, I'll include the costs to realign bow trail). Most of us just think it isn't nearly enough for a business venture that will line their own pockets.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Does everyone forget that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a public owned building? I'm not getting into a pissing match in regards to tax sheltering on a personal tax level, but I don't blame him for protecting his money when over night the government tries to take an extra 8%.

That $200 million buys them a cheaper lease/operating rights, and effectively pays for itself as the franchise value will increase by at least $100M with a new building.

Also, notice how many renovations the Saddledome, or any arena/stadium goes through in it's lifespan? 10-15 years after completion there will be new trends in arenas, and the Flames will want the city to renovate "the city's" building then.

Who treats their cars better and worries about maintenance more? - people that lease, or buy? I'd rather the Flames had a direct interested in keeping the facility up to date and well maintained themselves.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You are ok with people earning all their money in Canada and getting out of some of their tax debt by claiming residence elsewhere? A move that can only be done super rich people who can fly and live all over the globe.

Doubt very much he has a debt, and even if he did, moving wouldn't get him out of it

[Flash Walken]

The economics of this are simple.

If it was such a good deal the flames would be financing it themselves.

I'm waiting to hear why the Calgary Flames wouldn't directly finance something that made such financial sense unless they were run by a group of idiots without any business sense.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You missed the 10-day event, where even though most of the parking spaces are occupied by the actual festival, they proably turnover any remaining lots 2-3 times each day.

Those other events are immaterial to the conversation, though. Flames, Hitmen and Roughnecks and concerts are all that matters to this. Also, the lack of parking revenue would certainly have been considered in the deal when the Flames bought operating rights and in whatever annual fees they pay. If they got the parking revenue, then they'd be paying more for the rights to it...just as it factored in to the Stampede's contracts with the city.

I have the Stampede's rough revenue breakdown jotted down from years ago, so I'll see if I can dig it up (but again, that will be their total revenue, not Flames related revenue). At a quick glance on google, I see about 3000 spots that would be paid for on a busy night (not including Flames parkade and surrounding surface lots..I assume Flames operates those and gets the revenue, can anyone confirm?)...there's probably another 500-1000 spots mixed in there, but it's important to remember that there would be a few hundred non-paid vehicles, and it's possible that some spots are already occupied for other events at Stampede, and therefore unavailable to be sold as 'Flames related revenue'.

Anyways, let's throw out a generous 3500 number for 50 busiest nights (Flames, big concerts) and 2500 for Hitmen, Roughnecks and non-sell out shows..say 70 nights. I'll save showing my work, but that works out to $5.25M assuming $15 per vehicle. I think we could probably agree that 'Flames related parking revenue' falls somewhere between 3-6M per year...the middle point of $4.5M seems like a reasonable estimate.

And remember, this is just revenue. The expenses involved in running a giant parking lot are pretty low considering the revenue, but there are still staff costs, maintenance costs (short term, ie. snow removal, etc. and long-term, paving, painting), the electricity bill for street lights, etc. The Stampede has a park patrol/security dept. too...they certainly staff more on nights when 15000 people (many of which are drunk) spill out than dark nights...and some of those drunks inevitably lead to some vandalism/destruction of property (obviously not every night, but the 'wear and tear' costs of having that many people through your property every year are going to add up to 5-6 figures in the end). Lots of little costs that do add up... and that's not including the costs associated with the land itself (which are largely irrelevant here).


Also, let's remember the CNext plan currently has 2600? parking spots...and those wouldn't all be paid spots every night either, and the Flames would then be paying for all of the aforementioned expenses.

Maybe these costs can be covered by all the money Murray is saving by residing in the goddamn UK.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by stone hands

The owners are five billionaires(with a b)

It really saddens me when I hear people say that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a billion dollar project like its some kind of altruistic gesture.

This is their facility. I get that people love the flames but no thanks

I'm all for CSE paying for the whole thing, but:

Edwards Net Worth: $2.2 B
Riddell Net Worth: $1.17 B
Markin Net Worth: $670 million
McCaig Net Worth: Unknown
Libin Net Worth: Unknown

They aren't all billionaires. Still, they should be able to afford it.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Does everyone forget that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a public owned building?

They want it to be a public owned building because then they can get a better deal in buying management rights to collect the revenue but not have to pay property taxes.

The Habs were paying $8M a year in property tax for a building they financed while the Flames currently get all the benefits of the Dome paying ~$250K a year. I know what deal I'd have. When the building is at the end of its life it's basically worthless, so there's no benefit to owning it when you inevitably sell the management of the building away. You're just holding onto a depreciating asset so some billionaires can get a better deal.

It being a public building is a negative aspect of the deal, not a positive one.

[Flash Walken]

I seem to remember there were some posters on this board who heavily ridiculed the Oilers for having an owner who lived in Vancouver instead of Edmonton.

[Enoch Root]

fortunately, there's still a few of them here

[Enoch Root]

Not to mention, I think the ridiculing was more towards Edmonton. Because here was an owner that, despite the better taxes, just didn't want to live there.