As frustrating as it is, the best solution is to educate and inform, not create barriers to health care or mandate forced immunization.
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From HFBoard oiler fan, in analyzing MacT's management:
O.K. there has been a lot of talk on whether or not MacTavish has actually done a good job for us, most fans on this board are very basic in their analysis and I feel would change their opinion entirely if the team was successful.
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As frustrating as it is, the best solution is to educate and inform, not create barriers to health care or mandate forced immunization.
I understand what you're saying, but seriously... how much more education and information does there need to be? There's so much science, literature, and media reports out there. Every reputable medical organization is advocating vaccines and confirming there is no scientific reason to not vaccinate. All of it is washing off these people. What info or education can possibly work on them now?
I actually think continuing this trend of engaging pro-diseasers as though there is some rationality or reason to their position in an effort to convince the unconvinceable is playing with fire. We've been doing it too long already and now there is the blossoming of a public health crisis.
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As frustrating as it is, the best solution is to educate and inform, not create barriers to health care or mandate forced immunization.
I agree with the education angle, however, most pro-diseasers seem to think they know everything already and ignore anything that doesn;t confirm their bias. I agree that there should be manditory vacinations before a kid can go to school. They put the most at risk kids in serious danger. Friends of ours daughter had lukemia when she was 3 and her immune system is very fragile because of it. It would be a shame if some pro-disease bonehead caused their daughter to get a life threatening disease because they know it all already.
As frustrating as it is, the best solution is to educate and inform, not create barriers to health care or mandate forced immunization.
Honestly, I used to think this as well. Last year I wrote a paper on strategies for dealing with misinformation and those that fall for it, but at this point I think we have to start handing down some regulations. You don't get to cling to your lunacy when it starts to have an impact on the health of others.
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We were in SHC emerg on Sunday (shut up). There was a mom there with her little one, who was ill. A friend of hers happened to also be in the ER due to a cracked something or other in her foot. Mom had to go out to her vehicle and get something so she came and had the friend hold the baby, in the triage chairs area. Then when she was back, she proceeded to talk to the friend and they were both crowing about how they don't vaccinate and mom was all put out that the docs were testing her little guy for all the diseases she could avoid by vaccinating. When they started that up, my husband and I got up and moved to a completely different area and masked up - the nurse came looking for us to do vitals, etc and asked why we'd moved because he couldn't find us. I asked the nurse why she was allowed to wander the triage area if the baby was being tested for these diseases, particularly if he actually had one of them, since it was a great place to spread them to other patients - told him we moved because we live with someone who is considered immunocompromised and had no interest in possibly carrying crap home to them. Told the nurse if something came of it, I'd be having a very long drawn out conversation with the hospital about it.
They made her remain in the room after that. I'm sure she wasn't best pleased but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
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Completely in agreement here. With our system we have agreed to take on the liability of everyones stupidity, be it sports, drinking/drug abuse or anti-vaccination.
In addition we don't need people who catch the measles not seeking treatment and spreading it further because they can't afford the cost of treatment.
Maybe it should just be against the law to not vaccinate then. Don't worry about the added health care costs, just charge them with willfully endangering the general public. Maybe a few months in jail would help educate these bozos. Treat it the same as stabbing someone with an AIDS needle. The difference between a smoker or a drunk and an anti vaxxer is significant. One is endangering themselves (mostly), the other is endangering others (including thier own children).
Last edited by Fire of the Phoenix; 02-10-2015 at 12:36 PM.
Reason: I
Great article from the Economist on this topic the other day which noted that news programs offering "balanced content" and allowing anti-vaccination advocates on the air to respond to the science has a detrimental effect on vaccinations
"This actually happened in Britain in 2002, after the idea of a link between the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism was first publicised. Despite plentiful scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine was safe, and that it was used in over 90 countries, what people heard was that there were two sides to the debate. Vaccination rates plummeted (though they have since rebounded).
An investigation into the decline of vaccinations in Britain found that the problem, in part, was the way the media covered the matter. In an effort to offer balance—and to entertain viewers with a lively verbal jousting match—news outlets lined up people with opposing views. In one corner were health experts who supported the vaccine. In the other were charismatic quacks or parents who were utterly convinced that the vaccine had made their children autistic (and whose genuine grief swayed many viewers). In America minor celebrities have joined this mix."
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^^ Pretty much what I was getting at earlier. Even debating the issue gives it too much legitimacy. People often don't look at what is being said specifically, but assume that if credible news sources are giving them air time, then their argument must be credible.
It really is best to just ignore them. You will never get 100% buy-in on the issue no matter how much you argue with them.
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The owners of the unlicensed daycare in the suburb of Orleans say their facility is for parents like them who are worried about vaccines and choosing not to vaccinate their kids.
The daycare owners are no longer doing interviews, but have told several local media outlets that they believe recently-vaccinated children carry around live viruses that can then infect others.
A Queen’s University professor under fire for using anti-vaccination material in a health course will no longer be teaching that course, the university said.
A spokeswoman told the Star Monday evening that Melody Torcolacci has requested and has been granted leave from teaching Physical Determinants of Health (HLTH 102) for the remainder of the term.
“Discussions around her other classes are ongoing,” the spokeswoman said in a statement.
Torcolacci, an adjunct professor in the university’s school of kinesiology and health, did not respond to requests for comment.
Torcolacci was accused last week of using information about vaccines and health that had been widely challenged by medical experts. It was reported that students had previously complained about the material to their academic affairs commissioner.
Lecture slides sent to the Star and posted online, which appear to be from the class, ask the question, “Vaccines — Good or Bad?”
“No scientific evidence exists showing vaccines are NOT contributing to increased incidents of chronic illness and disability in children,” reads one slide.
The course description states, “HLTH 102 looks at some of the many physical determinants of health beyond the obvious factors of physical activity, nutrition, and stress management.” The course summary says “vaccines and health” will be covered in the class.
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Great article from the Economist on this topic the other day which noted that news programs offering "balanced content" and allowing anti-vaccination advocates on the air to respond to the science has a detrimental effect on vaccinations
I think a large part of the problem is the pro-diseasers haven't seen the side effects of the disease, so they can't contemplate the stupidity of their actions, they haven't seen the hundreds of thousands of cases of measles, the thousands upon thousands of deaths from small pox and polio. They fixate on what they can see. The diseases that are blamed on the vaccines even if there is no truth behind the accusations.
How do you convince someone who fundamentally doesn't understand how science works, that vaccines are beneficial?
Sadly at this point i think the solution is segregating the vaccinated and pro-disease children in schools. Yes it is going to suck when measles sweeps through the schools of the pro-disease parents, devastating the children, but that might be the only evidence that pro-disease partents can contemplate.
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This post is going around Facebook right now, and I think it's brilliant because it finally puts a face to the potential consequeses of people not vaccinating their children. The post comes with a photo of her baby, but I won't post that. In spoiler tags as it's a pretty long post.
Spoiler!
This is my son Griffin, and he may have measles.
On February 9th, I received a phone call from York Region Public Health, informing me that Griffin, alongside my mother and I, was potentially exposed to the measles virus while attending a newborn weigh-in appointment at my doctor’s office in Markham on January 27th.
Griffin was 15 days old at the time.
I was informed that someone who later developed measles sat in the doctor’s waiting room between 1 hour before and 30 minutes before we arrived. I was also informed that measles is regarded as “airborne” and can stay in the air and on surfaces up to 2 hours after the infected person has left.
I was then asked if I had had the measles vaccine. I had.
Griffin. Griffin had not. Can not.
I was advised to not be around small children. If I worked in such an environment I would be written off work. I do work in such an environment; my home. Where I now sit with Griffin and my 3 year old, Aurelia, who has only been able to get one MMR vaccine so far. She is now, technically, exposed too. We are to sit tight and watch for symptoms: fever, cough, runny nose. If we develop any of these we are to call my doctor and arrange to come in under official medical precautions. We are to wait at home, in isolation, until February 17th, after which the 21 days of possible incubation will have passed and we are clear.
So, Griffin is now Schrödinger’s baby. Simultaneously with measles, and without it. Until he develops symptoms, or until a further 7 days pass. One or other.
And I’m angry. Angry as hell.
I won’t get angry at or blame the person in the waiting room. I would have likely done the same thing...you get sick, you go to the doctor. I have no idea what their story is and I will never know. But I do know one thing:
If you have chosen to not vaccinate yourself or your child, I blame you.
I blame you.
You have stood on the shoulders of our collective protection for too long. From that high height, we have given you the PRIVILEGE of our protection, for free. And in return, you gave me this week. A week from hell. Wherein I don’t know if my BABY will develop something that has DEATH as a potential outcome.
DEATH.
Now, let’s unpack this shall we. All out on the table.
You have NO IDEA what this “potential outcome” means. NO IDEA. I do. Unfortunately, I do.
You think you are protecting your children from thimerosal? You aren’t. It’s not in their vaccine.
You think you are protecting them from autism? You aren’t. There is no, none, nada, nothing in science that proves this. If you want to use google instead of science to “prove me wrong” then I am happy to call you an imbecile as well as misinformed.
You think you are protecting them through extracts and homeopathy and positive thoughts and Laws of Attraction and dancing by candlelight on a full moon? You aren’t. I PROTECT YOUR CHILD. We protect your child. By being concerned world citizens who care about ourselves, our fellow man, and our most vulnerable. So we vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You think you are protecting them by letting them eat their shovel full of dirt and reducing antibiotics and eating organic? You aren’t. As an unvaccinated person you are only protected by our good graces. WE LET YOU BE SO PRIVILEGED thanks to our willingness to vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You know what vaccines protect your children from? Pain. Suffering. Irreparable harm. Death.
And you would be the first to line up if you had an inkling of what the death of a child feels like. You would be crawling through the streets on your hands and knees, begging, BEGGING to get that vaccine into your precious babies because that is what I would have done, if I could, to save my daughter.
The fact is, there was no vaccine for her. Not for her illness. And she died. She died at age five and a half, and she is gone.
And I watch these arguments trotted out on Facebook and twitter citing false science and long discredited“studies” that just won’t stop and Jenny McCarthy quotes and “it’s MY choice” to not vaccinate...and I think...what would you have done if your child lay dying? Would you give them a scientifically proven, safe and effective vaccine and risk the minuscule likelihood of a side effect? Or would you let them go, knowing that at least they won’t develop autism (which they wouldn’t even develop anyway because SCIENCE)?
And don’t you DARE tell me that you wouldn’t vaccinate them then. Don’t you dare. You have no idea what it feels like to go through what we went through.
So, look at Griffin. Tell me why he gets to bear the brunt of your stupidity and reckless abuse of our protection? Tell me.
Seven more days until I know that my baby is safe. Seven more days.
How is your week going, anti-vaxxers?
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But here’s what I had in common with anti-vaxxers that makes me somewhat sympathetic to their predicament: When it came to vaccinations, not to mention a lot of other parenting questions, I didn’t trust my pediatrician to supply the answers.
But here’s what everyone gets wrong: regardless of whether or not vaccines cause autism, our entire conversation surrounding them is completely ableist.
When those in the anti-vaccination movement treat autism as a calamity far worse than a debilitating disease or death, that is ableism. What we also need to recognize is that every time we respond to fear-mongering about vaccines and autism with the words, “don’t worry, vaccines don’t cause autism,” that is also ableist. Because instead of pointing out that, hey, autism and neurodiversity are far from the worst things that could happen to a parent, “vaccines don’t cause autism” falls into the same narrative as “vaccines cause autism”—both suggest that autism is this boogeyman that lives under our kids’ beds that could strike at any time.
just thought they both provided different insights to the topic. also, i think you guys are touching on one of the biggest problems as well; when the media presents the 1 person for - 1 person against segment that makes it seem like being on either side is reasonable. that Oliver bit perfectly illustrated how absurd that approach is. and i think it went a long way to enabling many of these people to develop such bad ideas.
This post is going around Facebook right now, and I think it's brilliant because it finally puts a face to the potential consequeses of people not vaccinating their children. The post comes with a photo of her baby, but I won't post that. In spoiler tags as it's a pretty long post.
Spoiler!
This is my son Griffin, and he may have measles.
On February 9th, I received a phone call from York Region Public Health, informing me that Griffin, alongside my mother and I, was potentially exposed to the measles virus while attending a newborn weigh-in appointment at my doctor’s office in Markham on January 27th.
Griffin was 15 days old at the time.
I was informed that someone who later developed measles sat in the doctor’s waiting room between 1 hour before and 30 minutes before we arrived. I was also informed that measles is regarded as “airborne” and can stay in the air and on surfaces up to 2 hours after the infected person has left.
I was then asked if I had had the measles vaccine. I had.
Griffin. Griffin had not. Can not.
I was advised to not be around small children. If I worked in such an environment I would be written off work. I do work in such an environment; my home. Where I now sit with Griffin and my 3 year old, Aurelia, who has only been able to get one MMR vaccine so far. She is now, technically, exposed too. We are to sit tight and watch for symptoms: fever, cough, runny nose. If we develop any of these we are to call my doctor and arrange to come in under official medical precautions. We are to wait at home, in isolation, until February 17th, after which the 21 days of possible incubation will have passed and we are clear.
So, Griffin is now Schrödinger’s baby. Simultaneously with measles, and without it. Until he develops symptoms, or until a further 7 days pass. One or other.
And I’m angry. Angry as hell.
I won’t get angry at or blame the person in the waiting room. I would have likely done the same thing...you get sick, you go to the doctor. I have no idea what their story is and I will never know. But I do know one thing:
If you have chosen to not vaccinate yourself or your child, I blame you.
I blame you.
You have stood on the shoulders of our collective protection for too long. From that high height, we have given you the PRIVILEGE of our protection, for free. And in return, you gave me this week. A week from hell. Wherein I don’t know if my BABY will develop something that has DEATH as a potential outcome.
DEATH.
Now, let’s unpack this shall we. All out on the table.
You have NO IDEA what this “potential outcome” means. NO IDEA. I do. Unfortunately, I do.
You think you are protecting your children from thimerosal? You aren’t. It’s not in their vaccine.
You think you are protecting them from autism? You aren’t. There is no, none, nada, nothing in science that proves this. If you want to use google instead of science to “prove me wrong” then I am happy to call you an imbecile as well as misinformed.
You think you are protecting them through extracts and homeopathy and positive thoughts and Laws of Attraction and dancing by candlelight on a full moon? You aren’t. I PROTECT YOUR CHILD. We protect your child. By being concerned world citizens who care about ourselves, our fellow man, and our most vulnerable. So we vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You think you are protecting them by letting them eat their shovel full of dirt and reducing antibiotics and eating organic? You aren’t. As an unvaccinated person you are only protected by our good graces. WE LET YOU BE SO PRIVILEGED thanks to our willingness to vaccinate ourselves and our children.
You know what vaccines protect your children from? Pain. Suffering. Irreparable harm. Death.
And you would be the first to line up if you had an inkling of what the death of a child feels like. You would be crawling through the streets on your hands and knees, begging, BEGGING to get that vaccine into your precious babies because that is what I would have done, if I could, to save my daughter.
The fact is, there was no vaccine for her. Not for her illness. And she died. She died at age five and a half, and she is gone.
And I watch these arguments trotted out on Facebook and twitter citing false science and long discredited“studies” that just won’t stop and Jenny McCarthy quotes and “it’s MY choice” to not vaccinate...and I think...what would you have done if your child lay dying? Would you give them a scientifically proven, safe and effective vaccine and risk the minuscule likelihood of a side effect? Or would you let them go, knowing that at least they won’t develop autism (which they wouldn’t even develop anyway because SCIENCE)?
And don’t you DARE tell me that you wouldn’t vaccinate them then. Don’t you dare. You have no idea what it feels like to go through what we went through.
So, look at Griffin. Tell me why he gets to bear the brunt of your stupidity and reckless abuse of our protection? Tell me.
Seven more days until I know that my baby is safe. Seven more days.
How is your week going, anti-vaxxers?
She's a friend of mine. She lost her eldest daughter on Boxing Day 2012 from an undiagnosed virus/infection - I still tear up every Christmas thinking of her and her family.
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^^ Pretty much what I was getting at earlier. Even debating the issue gives it too much legitimacy. People often don't look at what is being said specifically, but assume that if credible news sources are giving them air time, then their argument must be credible.
It really is best to just ignore them. You will never get 100% buy-in on the issue no matter how much you argue with them.
There was an article on Slate the other day that said the only way to solve the issue is to personally attack anti-vaxxers. Why? Because they are morons. The whole issue is a no-brainer, and yet here we are talking about why so many parents want innocent kids to die of horrible diseases.