Poachers chopper into S. African game reserve, kill last female rhino

[peter12]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

If you watch a documentary on pigs and what happens when they are taken from their mothers early as on a pig farm, you'll have temporary troubles putting back the pork.

Pigs are very smart animals. I prefer beef and chicken as they are dumb compared to a pig.

So can they do secretarial work? Maybe I can fire all of my rather dull interns and hire pigs for free instead.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

What I take offense to are the people who think their way is the right way and any other way is wrong.

Here's a prime example: people eating dogs. I mean, Western culture has labelled that as being bad and terrible, and that we should only eat cows, chickens, pigs, etc, because they aren't as cute. I mean, really, if I were to open a dog farm and raise dogs for the sake of food, what exactly is the difference between that and a cow farm? I honestly fail to see any difference.

And just as some Westerners scoff at the way of life of Chinese people, Chinese people feel the same about them. In China, any animal is potential food, be it dogs, bugs, whatever. And, they eat every part of the animal. Conversely, North Americans waste a lot of animal parts because they think it's "gross". Chinese eat cow tongues, chicken feet, and pigs feet. Hell, I've seen them eat crocodile heads on a platter. I've seen solidfied pigs blood mixed in with congee. But Western people just throw all that perfectly good food away.

So tell me which is more damaging to the environment? Some of you Westerners just like crap on China because of their bad environmental record and human rights, yet have no problem saving a few bucks by using the very products that contribute to the pollution. It's exactly the same attitude Americans have with Alberta's Oilsands. They bitch about our damage to the environment as they fill up their big SUV's with the gas coming from these sands and whine about high gas prices.

100% bang on and one of the main reasons I cannot stand Western ignorance such as what is in this thread, and I am born/raised in Western culture. Its embarrassing to say these people are in the society I grew up in.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

What I take offense to are the people who think their way is the right way and any other way is wrong.

Here's a prime example: people eating dogs. I mean, Western culture has labelled that as being bad and terrible, and that we should only eat cows, chickens, pigs, etc, because they aren't as cute. I mean, really, if I were to open a dog farm and raise dogs for the sake of food, what exactly is the difference between that and a cow farm? I honestly fail to see any difference.

And just as some Westerners scoff at the way of life of Chinese people, Chinese people feel the same about them. In China, any animal is potential food, be it dogs, bugs, whatever. And, they eat every part of the animal. Conversely, North Americans waste a lot of animal parts because they think it's "gross". Chinese eat cow tongues, chicken feet, and pigs feet. Hell, I've seen them eat crocodile heads on a platter. I've seen solidfied pigs blood mixed in with congee. But Western people just throw all that perfectly good food away.

So tell me which is more damaging to the environment? Some of you Westerners just like crap on China because of their bad environmental record and human rights, yet have no problem saving a few bucks by using the very products that contribute to the pollution. It's exactly the same attitude Americans have with Alberta's Oilsands. They bitch about our damage to the environment as they fill up their big SUV's with the gas coming from these sands and whine about high gas prices.

I keep coming back to this post because it's just so awesome.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think the moralism etc... is ridiculous, however. There are practical steps that can be taken to prevent the destruction of endangered species around the globe.

Can you please be more specific? Are you talking about the moralism of his statement or moralism in general or something totally different?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Weren't cats the first domesticated animal ? Boy did you use a bad example. LoL

Did I? Other than being cute and providing some entertainment, I can't think of a single thing my cat - or any cat - has done for me, personally.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I can't think of a single thing my cat - or any cat - has done for me, personally.

Think a little further outside your living room.

Maybe the only reason your ancestors lived, was because cats protected their winter food from mice.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Think a little further outside your living room.

Maybe the only reason your ancestors lived, was because cats protected their winter food from mice.

And roosters acted as alarm clocks....
and mules/goats/camels/ox/some types of bison were used as pack animals...
and dolphins are used to detect mines... (canned tuna sure used to contain dolphin. cheaper brands probably still do)

lots of species of animals were used by various people at various times that don't have the same protected status that some people want to give cats.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

the same protected status that some people want to give cats.

I didn't know people wanted to protect cats, frick that, mine doesn't even like me.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

It is illegal to eat dogs in China now. You have to go to some underground restaurants to find it. It's still legal to eat dogs in Korea though.

What?!? Where did you read/hear this?

Eating dog is not illegal at all in China as far as I know, and you certainly don't need to go anywhere 'underground' to find it. It's not that common in the south, but up in the NE where I live it is all over the place. Loads of restaurants in the city where I work have 'dog meat' in their names. It's a pretty common winter food up in the northeastern provinces.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Europe went through the industrial revolution hundreds of years ago. Child labour, environmental damage, lack of housing and food standards, abuse of animals in cruel zoos and traveling shows were the norm.

China is going through this right now. They were an impoverished country, until all our demand for cheap goods in the West created this transitional period.

If you were to get in a time machine and go back to the industrial revolution you would see far worse things than you see in China today. This does not make it right, but does not make them a barbaric or lesser culture.

I think you would likely see many of the same things as you see in China today. I think one of the biggest differences however would be the relatively slow speed of progress in the West of the past as compared to what is happening in China today.

China is progressing at an extremely rapid pace, and while it may be one thing to look at economic numbers, trends or news reports from afar to explain the rise of China, that kind of remote analysis misses the positive and driven culture there is in China now. Chinese culture right now has many sides to it that are quite inspiring, including the optimism that the country is moving forward, the dedication to moving up in the world and improving life as well as the phenomenal work ethic that there is here. There is so much growth, development and optimism about opportunity here in China. Of course not everyone is walking around with a smile on their face all the time, but there is a pervasive and growing optimism about the improvements in the country and the future opportunities there are here. At the same time, the country is not so far removed from its recent history as to have lost connection with the difficulties of people's lives over the last 60 years, yet the culture here is still so very willing to embrace change and development and growth. Looking at strict governmental structures from the outside or levels of corruption that still do exist may lead some people to think China is quickly advancing economically while lumbering along culturally, but it's simply not true. The pace of change here is very rapid both economically and culturally. Really, it's that cultural development that is going to keep China going upwards. It's an advantage China has over a lot of Western countries.

[Jake]

Japan IMO is much worst than China, at least as far as fisheries go. As an example, Japan and Australia set a limit to blue fin tuna catches (a quota). Austalia abided by it, Japan pretended to/lied, when they were really exceeding it by 2-5x. When combined with the fact that quotes already exceeded the levels recommended by fisheries scientists... well... that just doesn't leave many tuna in the ocean. It is a very similar situation as the ivory, Japan demands tuna and will pay obscene prices for it, and therefore drives fishers to catch more than they are allowed.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

and dolphins are used to detect mines... (canned tuna sure used to contain dolphin. cheaper brands probably still do).

The "dolphin safe" logo is kind of mis-leading. One would assume that dolphin safe would mean no dolphins are killed, however, in reality, in order for the company to be allowed to put that logo on their cans, they need to show they kill less than a certain number of dolphins per year. I believe the number is around 500/year, so dolphins are still being killed. Still, a lot better than 50,000. You can buy white tuna that is caught by hook and line, but it is 2-3x the price of regular white tuna.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

What I take offense to are the people who think their way is the right way and any other way is wrong.

Here's a prime example: people eating dogs..

And just as some Westerners scoff at the way of life of Chinese people, Chinese people feel the same about them. In China, any animal is potential food, be it dogs, bugs, whatever. And, they eat every part of the animal. Conversely, North Americans waste a lot of animal parts because they think it's "gross". Chinese eat cow tongues, chicken feet, and pigs feet. Hell, I've seen them eat crocodile heads on a platter. I've seen solidfied pigs blood mixed in with congee. But Western people just throw all that perfectly good food away.

So tell me which is more damaging to the environment? Some of you Westerners just like crap on China because of their bad environmental record and human rights, yet have no problem saving a few bucks by using the very products that contribute to the pollution. It's exactly the same attitude Americans have with Alberta's Oilsands. They bitch about our damage to the environment as they fill up their big SUV's with the gas coming from these sands and whine about high gas prices.

Okay, one more of my pet peeves. (Former student of cultural anthropology and philosophy speaking here, take that how you like. Or: What I take offense with is lazy thinking by people who could do better.)

Please note that nobody here (as far as I noticed) has claimed that we should do something to force the Chinese to change their ways. We are just stating that we don't like some of their ways. I fail to see how this is anything but the most commonly accepted human behaviour, and if you have something against this, I would like for you to explain why. If we do not like something we see, why should we not say so?

If we truly consider the Chinese as equal human beings, it should naturally follow that we hold them up to the same moral standards as we do ourselves. To claim that we should not criticize any part of a foreign culture is essentially stating that "they" are too alien to be considered "people like us".

As another point, just because we as westerners do different bad/questionable things really has nothing at all to do with the bad/questionable things the Chinese do. Really. It has absolutely zero relevance. One bad thing does not make another okay.

Also, you got your facts wrong: the western culture is very good about spending every part of animal, we have developed quite advanced ways of turning just about every part of animal into something that can be sold for money; capitalism might not be all it's said to be, but it's pretty effective at times. As the most blatant examples, ever eaten sausages? Or a hamburger? That's where a lot of the "second grade" meat like tongues go. The more imporant difference is that we like to distance ourselves from what we are eating, which does have plenty of downsides, but is really totally irrelevant here.

It's quite hard to find anything like shark fin harvesting from "the West".

But more importantly, we are mostly not talking about consumption of animals for food or general enviromental issues in this thread, we are talking about

a) poaching rare animals for superstitious reasons
b) abuse of animals for entertainment purposes (Chinese zoos as an example).

We consider these things to be (to put it bluntly) BAD, a universally evil thing.

It's pretty commonly accepted in "the West" that while local culture is an important factor in what can be considered right or wrong actions, there are still things that are universally bad. Many westerners consider mistreatment of animals to be a universal evil.

You may not like what is said in this thread, but if you want to criticize the discussion, you really should turn your eyes from the straw man of western superiority to some actual target. Basicly I see two options:

a) Claim that universal evil does not exist. You'll find plenty of material to back you up, but I think you'll find it a tough sell. I suggest starting new thread, might be interesting.
b) Start arguing that poaching animals to the point of extinction for reasons of superstition/tradition and/or abuse of animals for entertainment purposes do not belong in the category of universal evils. Personally I think this is essentially impossible unless you want to go into quite abstract definitions of universal evil.

[icarus]

Interestingly, when I lived in South Africa I think I actually heard more about abalone poaching than rhino poaching. For those who don't know, an abalone is a sea snail.

From Wikipedia:

The largest abalone in South Africa, the Perlemoen, Haliotis midae, occurs along approximately two-thirds of the country’s coastline. Perlemoen-diving has been a recreational activity for many years, but stocks are currently being threatened by illegal commercial harvesting. In South Africa all persons harvesting this animal need permits that are issued on a yearly basis, and no abalone may be harvested using scuba gear.

For the last few years, however, no permits have been issued for collecting Abalone (Perlemoen), but commercial harvesting still continues as does illegal collection by syndicates. In 2007, because of widespread poaching of abalone, the South African government listed perlemoen as an endangered species according to the CITES section III appendix, which requests member governments to monitor the trade in this species. The abalone meat from South Africa is prohibited for sale in the country to help reduce poaching however, much of the illegally harvested meat is sold in Asian countries. As of early 2008, the wholesale price for abalone meat was approximately US$40.00 per kilogram. There is an active trade in the shells which sell for more than US$1,400 per metric tonne. There is, however, speculation that local criminal gangs barter Abalone illegally with Chinese nationals in exchange for chemicals used in the production of drugs, reducing the need for the use of money and hence avoiding money laundering difficulties.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by fotze

Ya but, how many Jesus' have to die to make a bottle of red wine?

Seems like six would be a good number.

[killer_carlson]

western cultures eat cow tongue and heart all the time. It's what is added to lean ground beef to make it "extra lean" at the supermarket. All meat, no fat. To make regular ground beef, they add fat.

as per a relative who worked in the meat department at Superstore.

[Lithium]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

western cultures eat cow tongue and heart all the time. It's what is added to lean ground beef to make it "extra lean" at the supermarket. All meat, no fat. To make regular ground beef, they add fat.

as per a relative who worked in the meat department at Superstore.

Don't forget the Prairie Oysters.

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

western cultures eat cow tongue and heart all the time. It's what is added to lean ground beef to make it "extra lean" at the supermarket. All meat, no fat. To make regular ground beef, they add fat.

as per a relative who worked in the meat department at Superstore.

Not true, ground beef is only made with meat.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/.../burgere.shtml

[killer_carlson]

when did cow stop becoming meat?

[killer_carlson]

hell, if this is true, I may now be a vegetarian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!