Canadian at U.S. Border

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by DAN0383

I've crossed many times and I've always found the US Border Guards to be alot nicer and easier to deal with than their Canadian counterparts... I guess we will all have different experiences with it.

Me too, but maybe I've just been lucky. For the most part I find the U.S. guys to be more jokey and even willing to chat/joke outside of the business at hand. Whereas the Canadian guys all seemed to be straight by the book, no nonsense. And if you make a joke or appear too relaxed, they don't seem impressed.

[schteve_d]

The idiot went looking for trouble and he found it. Only after he found it did he realize how stupid it was. The rest of us realize this beforehand.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Me too, but maybe I've just been lucky. For the most part I find the U.S. guys to be more jokey and even willing to chat/joke outside of the business at hand. Whereas the Canadian guys all seemed to be straight by the book, no nonsense. And if you make a joke or appear too relaxed, they don't seem impressed.

See, I've really had the opposite experience.

This past May I was coming back in from Iowa, having traveled in for my dissertation defense--and when I was asked by the Canada Customs official about the reason for my trip, that's what I told him.

He proceeded to ask me about ten follow-up questions: what's your degree in, what did you write the dissertation on, what's next for you, and so on--I was starting to feel like I was being given the third degree. I actually started to think that I might have a problem--even though I'm a Canadian citizen, and in retrospect I can't imagine being denied entry on the basis of some crazy grad-school related line of questioning.

Then he moved on to questions like "and the defense, what was that like? Were you nervous? Were you pretty prepared for the questions?" That's when I realized that his interest was more than professional.

Turns out the guy a graduate student himself. All this time I was feeling interrogated, and it turns out he was just interested--which I have to say, was a first for me. Generally, upon hearing "I'm doing a PhD in English Literature," customs officers become desperate not to hear any more about it.

In the end, we had a nice conversation for about 10 minutes. In all the times I've gone to the U.S., that has never happened.

[FiftyBelow]

I've encountered US and Canadian border guards numerous times and I'd have to say all my experiences - except one - were pleasant. Surprisingly I've even had US border guards say "welcome home" to me a couple of times when connecting in the US on the way to Canada from Europe or Australia. Most of the time I'm never questioned longer than a minute. As others have said... just answer truthfully, concisely, and specifically. Follow these rules and you should never have much a problem. The only time I've had a bit of an unpleasant experience was after a 34 hour journey and a late 1 am arrival into YYC. Naturally I was tired and didn't answer the questions very specifically. As a result the Canadian guard grilled me to get more specific and clearer answers.

[hockeycop]

As for the original post. This is a simple case of a Canadian with an undeserved sense of entitlement playing games. Got called on his actions and arrested. Likely denied entry to the USA and released without charge (would have been a weak Uttering Threats or Assault case).

3 "terrorists" a day is BS. 3 major criminals, definitely, but not 3 terrorists. Their job at the border is not fun and games, they don't play nice, and they don't put on a fake smile and practice "customer service". They are protecting a border, not working at the f***ing GAP.

Crossing the border is simple. Customs/Immigration will ask questions. Not all of them will seem reasonable to you. You will answer them fully. You may or may not be searched (don't ask why... it doesn't matter). You will then recieve a stamp in your passport and be on your way (as long as you are not inadmissible).

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

ISection 98 of the customs act which authorizes the search states this:

98.(1) An officer may search
(a) any person who has arrived in Canada, within a reasonable time after his arrival in Canada,

(b) any person who is about to leave Canada, at any time prior to his departure, or

(c) any person who has had access to an area designated for use by persons about to leave Canada and who leaves the area but does not leave Canada, within a reasonable time after he leaves the area,

if the officer suspects on reasonable grounds that the person has secreted on or about his person anything in respect of which this Act has been or might be contravened, anything that would afford evidence with respect to a contravention of this Act or any goods the importation or exportation of which is prohibited, controlled or regulated under this or any other Act of Parliament.


Section 99 allows for the examination of goods, which would be anything you are bringing into the country such as your car or luggage.

So basically, a customs officer can search you whenever they want but they also need to be able to articulate the grounds as to why. Because of case law that requirement is very low, but it still must be done.

Section 98 is for personal searched (strip searches). Those ones require grounds and I believe require consent os a Superintendant (I did 2 summers as a Student Customs Officer).

All goods are subject to searches. Grounds are "I wish to verify your declaration". Goods = Cars, planes, luggage, and pockets.

Immigration Officers must have grounds to search someones baggage. Customs Officers really already have their grounds built into the Customs Act.

R v. Simmons reinforces that. It was in regard to the charter's (Specifically S.8) applicability at a border crossing. It states that a person crossing a border should expect to be searched and that S.8 does not apply during routine customs exams.

"Per McIntyre and L'Heureux‑Dubé JJ.: Appellant was not detained within the meaning of s. 10(b) of the Charter when she was subjected to a strip search at customs pursuant to s. 143 of the Customs Act. The definition of detention in R. v. Therens, [1985] 1 S.C.R. 613, does not go as far as to cover a search by a customs officer who carries out the routine procedures in order to control the illegal importation of goods and substances across the border. Persons entering Canada, whether or not they are citizens, are placed in a unique legal situation at the point at which they enter the country. They expect to submit to a certain degree of inspection of their baggage, and in some cases, their person. Their situation is distinguishable from one where an individual is stopped or detained in the course of his activities within Canada. It is incidents of this latter nature to which the definition in Therens was meant to apply.

The purpose of s. 10(b) of the Charter gives also a clear indication that the provision does not apply to a border search. The purpose of the right to counsel is to ensure that the individual is treated fairly in the criminal process and, in particular, to prevent the individual from incriminating himself. In a border search the issue is not one of self‑incrimination. A search at the border is part of the process of entering the country and is not part of the criminal process. The right to counsel will arise only where a searched person is placed under custody as part of the criminal process. This does not mean, however, that no right to counsel can ever arise in searches which occur at ports of entry. Where the purpose of the detention, interrogation, or search arises in criminal proceedings, as distinct from those concerning entry into the country, the Charter protection against unreasonable search and seizure and the right to counsel will apply.

Finally, considering this unique situation and the state interest in preventing the entry of undesirable persons or goods, customs searches pursuant to ss. 143 and 144 of the Customs Act are reasonable and do not therefore infringe s. 8 of the Charter. The search itself was conducted in a reasonable manner. Appellant, who was not detained within the meaning of s. 10(b) of the Charter, was sufficiently informed of her right to appeal the search to a higher customs authority when she was shown the text of ss. 143 and 144 of the Customs Act. "

[sa226]

I wonder what kind of training border security personnel have. With their increased authority I wonder if there is additional training they go through.

I wish I could find a great article that was posted in another forum around the time the government authorized the full body airport scanners. It talked about how North American airport security is going down an incredibly expensive and altogether ineffective road.

It compared the airport security of Tel-Aviv to its North American counter parts. At the Israeli airport there are something like 6 security checkpoints, 4 soft and 2 hard, something along those lines. The soft checkpoints are manned by an officer with behavioral profiling training that would ask simple questions designed to guage certain reactions, or the same officers with the same training watching security cameras and flagging certain observations....

I'm not going to describe the whole article, the gist of it was that in order to adequately screen travelers, North America doesn't need to spend more taxpayers dollars on new fancy technology, it needs to undergo a complete change in philosophy that starts at the highest levels and could take years.

I kind of went off on a bit of a tangent there, but I am wondering if these border security officers have similar training that caused them to notice certain behavioral patterns that made them seem like either a giant ass or a nice person who is just interested, as people are describing above.


I'm going to see if I can find that article again. It was in the Toronto Star a few months back....


EDIT: Wasn't that hard of a search
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

[hockeycop]

Canadian Officers are trained with a massive amount of legislation. The Federal Govt. trains them how to greet people in both official languages... And a bunch of other useless crap. They are trained in Control and Defensive Tactics, firarms, and tactics.

Supplemental Interview and Interrogation courses are organized by the Officers in their own regions because they want to be better at their jobs. The Officers understand that the training they get from the Feds is insufficient. The majority of the men and women working the border are there to stop real threats (trust me, there are real threats) but because the CBSA was recently formed (2005 - combining Customs and Immigration), the training suffered and has not yet been brought to an acceptable standard.

Behavioural profiling is an Police/Immigration/Customs Officer's greatest tool.

The border can be a really ugly place. The public and news doesn't see that part, because the Officers are pretty good at filtering the filth away from the good people before larger issues develop.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by sa226

I'm not going to describe the whole article, the gist of it was that in order to adequately screen travelers, North America doesn't need to spend more taxpayers dollars on new fancy technology, it needs to undergo a complete change in philosophy that starts at the highest levels and could take years.

EDIT: Wasn't that hard of a search
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

I just read the article. I was resisting because it is the star, but that was actually a good read.

It wouldn't take years, it really only needs a handful of people to get punted out of their offices.

This issue plagues the administrations of Airport Security, the CBSA, RCMP, CSIS, CIC...

It is simply the pussification of Canada. We need to stop doing things or not doing things based solely on optics and being PC, and start doing what is right for our country!

[Antithesis]

Almost inevitably when I cross the border I get asked what I do. I say, "I teach in a Junior High School". They laugh and we make jokes about it for a while and then I pass through. I've had times returning where I had near double my duty free allotment and I just get passed through - I like to think because I have my receipts ready and speak respectfully and clearly.

[Potty]

Originally Posted by Reaper

"So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time..."

Haha, everyone should seriously try it, 100% foolproof. My parents have a cabin at Mount Baker and I grew up in the Fraser Valley, so I crossed the border a lot. I've never been searched, pulled in for questioning, nothing and I have been through the border hundreds of times. Just be as bland as possible, hahaha.