Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[flamesfever]

Charity is not simply giving money, although admittedly this is what the thread is all about. As we use do say in church, charity can take 3 forms, which we used to call the "3 ts":
1. the giving of your "time"
2. the giving of your "talents"
3. the giving of your "treasure"

So in a way, the giving of your time on CP, if stated for the benefit of others, could be construed as a charitable act.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Lots of pastors will preach tithing or more giving but none that I've seen will expel you if you don't. I also don't think it will keep you out of heaven.

I was at a funeral for a friends mother last week. I always cringe when they pass around the collection plate. If you just pass it without putting anything in, people look at you funny and you don't want to appear disrespectful at a funeral. On the other hand, the money being collected isn't going to my friend's family - it's going to the church. For building expenses, staff, etc.. Where I wouldn't normally be putting my money. But wanting to avoid seeming like a skinflint asshat, I tossed in a few bucks. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has donated out of a sense of obligation rather than generosity.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I was at a funeral for a friends mother last week. I always cringe when they pass around the collection plate. If you just pass it without putting anything in, people look at you funny and you don't want to appear disrespectful at a funeral. On the other hand, the money being collected isn't going to my friend's family - it's going to the church. For building expenses, staff, etc.. Where I wouldn't normally be putting my money. But wanting to avoid seeming like a skinflint asshat, I tossed in a few bucks. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has donated out of a sense of obligation rather than generosity.

You care too much what people will think of you. Let the plate pass by if you don't want to give. I've never seen a collection taken at a funeral. The family pays the costs.

[Traditional_Ale]

Organized mainstream religions have been and continue to be the greatest cancer of humanity.

[photon]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I'm a Christian and have knowledge of lots of denominations and churches within denominations and have yet to see a church that requires tithing, other than some of the cults which exist to get your money and your mind anyway.

But they do exist, they're even mentioned in that WSJ article I posted.

The churches I attended didn't make it a requirement of the membership, just of those in leadership.. and it wasn't a "you have to do this" kind of thing, it was just understood that to be in leadership you had to show a certain level of commitment to God and have a specific level of obedience and tithing was part of that, just in the same way that someone in ministry couldn't be a bad gossip or have a drinking problem or be divorced or in a relationship outside of marriage or any number of other things.

And if someone in ministry or leadership went that way the church would work with them to try and get them back to what they should be doing but if they couldn't then sometimes they'd be asked to step down. Just like if someone in ministry was found frequenting a strip club or was overindulging in alcohol or any other number of things that would show the person wasn't in submissions to god.

[Mr.Coffee]

I click on this thread, because I feel like I should care more and have better formed opinions and because I'm slightly bored... but then I just skim and generally don't really read what's going on.

That's basically in a nutshell I guess my belief. I find it amazing how passionate people get talking about religion, it's like talking about your favourite colour. At the end of the day, people believe what they want to believe and they use religion for whatever reason they use it for, and nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion... and that's the way it is and always will be. Opinions are opinions, people form them and stick to them, and debating about it is largely a waste of time and frankly pretty boring.

What's your favourite colour? No wait, I don't care... it won't change my opinion on mine anyway.

Anyway, carry on, I probably won't check back in this thread because my bet is that no resolution is found and people will agree to disagree.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I click on this thread, because I feel like I should care more and have better formed opinions and because I'm slightly bored... but then I just skim and generally don't really read what's going on.

That's basically in a nutshell I guess my belief. I find it amazing how passionate people get talking about religion, it's like talking about your favourite colour. At the end of the day, people believe what they want to believe and they use religion for whatever reason they use it for, and nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion... and that's the way it is and always will be. Opinions are opinions, people form them and stick to them, and debating about it is largely a waste of time and frankly pretty boring.

What's your favourite colour? No wait, I don't care... it won't change my opinion on mine anyway.

Anyway, carry on, I probably won't check back in this thread because my bet is that no resolution is found and people will agree to disagree.

Sometimes though when people are passionate they want there opinion to be heard.And to hear others opinion,even if it is different then there own.

You're right, it probably won't change people's whole opinions,but may make them revise parts of their opinion.

And a question.Do churches seperate their tithing form there charitable collections?

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

Sometimes though when people are passionate they want there opinion to be heard.And to hear others opinion,even if it is different then there own.

You're right, it probably won't change people's whole opinions,but may make them revise parts of their opinion.

And a question.Do churches seperate their tithing form there charitable collections?

How do you mean? Do you mean keeping track of tithings of regular attendants and members versus what is just general donation to the church?

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Finny61

How do you mean? Do you mean keeping track of tithings of regular attendants and members versus what is just general donation to the church?

Sorta,what i mean is the money they tithe is it considered for charity?or is it just for the operations of the church?

And if thats the case then do they collect seperatly for charitable causes(food bank,soup kitchens etc......)

(i know i probably worded it badly)

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I was at a funeral for a friends mother last week. I always cringe when they pass around the collection plate. If you just pass it without putting anything in, people look at you funny and you don't want to appear disrespectful at a funeral. On the other hand, the money being collected isn't going to my friend's family - it's going to the church. For building expenses, staff, etc.. Where I wouldn't normally be putting my money. But wanting to avoid seeming like a skinflint asshat, I tossed in a few bucks. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has donated out of a sense of obligation rather than generosity.

Maybe it's just me but I'm thinking the disrespectful part is the church bringing a friggen collection plate to a funeral in the first place.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

Sorta,what i mean is the money they tithe is it considered for charity?or is it just for the operations of the church?

And if thats the case then do they collect seperatly for charitable causes(food bank,soup kitchens etc......)

(i know i probably worded it badly)

No worries, you will likely find differences lets put it that way, of the Protestant ones that I am aware of it's simply a case of having tellers count the money after the offering plates have been passed around and it is deposited into the central church account. What I'm not sure on is whether the treasurer/accountant for the church portions out the distributions for salaries/administration, maintenance, missionary programs and relief efforts, charitable work etc. It may be contracted out or looked after by the affiliation the church is with.

The idea of tithing though is to give money to sustain the church, that's why the article doesn't really stand well because these would be examples of people giving to their church to support their beliefs and to help others but channeled through the church. It's not to say there isn't volunteer programs in place for people to donate time and money but the church oversees them.

My own personal preference is making donations to the church but also making donations to the community organizations themselves directly, luckily for me my workplace makes these organizations easily accessible for me to partake in and they deserve just as much attention in my mind. If you went to a church and wanted your money to go to the Food Bank, I'd sooner write a cheque and take it directy to them (food bank).

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by Finny61

No worries, you will likely find differences lets put it that way, of the Protestant ones that I am aware of it's simply a case of having tellers count the money after the offering plates have been passed around and it is deposited into the central church account. What I'm not sure on is whether the treasurer/accountant for the church portions out the distributions for salaries/administration, maintenance, missionary programs and relief efforts, charitable work etc. It may be contracted out or looked after by the affiliation the church is with.

The idea of tithing though is to give money to sustain the church, that's why the article doesn't really stand well because these would be examples of people giving to their church to support their beliefs and to help others but channeled through the church. It's not to say there isn't volunteer programs in place for people to donate time and money but the church oversees them.

My own personal preference is making donations to the church but also making donations to the community organizations themselves directly, luckily for me my workplace makes these organizations easily accessible for me to partake in and they deserve just as much attention in my mind. If you went to a church and wanted your money to go to the Food Bank, I'd sooner write a cheque and take it directy to them (food bank).

to add from what i know at my church,
the church budgets for salaries and fixed giving for the missionaries it supports and whatever other costs there are. the money randomly put in goes together, and some people specify on collection envelopes or on cheques specific ministries or areas that the money should to towards. what is done with the main part of the money that is not designated, is planned by the elders of the church, and sometimes issues are voted on by members of the church. directed giving is fairly obvious, but its the rest of the money that is not designated that the church has to have some accountability/decision making for, and a member of the church should ask the elders/pastors where the money goes towards if they want, and i would expect enough information could be gained upon that. it depends on the church, what the church sees as important ministries/charities to support, and the people are the church, so they are able to decide based on information they can collect.

as for tithing, i understand the thing of people thinking they might be lower class, but i would hope that is not the actual case. it is natural to compare ourselves to others, but being the church, it is important to know that God is the judge, not other people. there is such a thing as spurring on another christian in their walk, but it is a tough area, because you don't know what is actually going on in the persons life, and tithing is a personal thing. some people do it automatically out of thier bank account, so someone sitting beside them for many weeks may get a bad idea, but there is not much you can do. getting to know someone is what should be done, instead of making a snap judgement.

[transplant99]

These fairy tales are no different than Jesus walking on water,Mary was a virgin,Jonah living in a whale, the great flood...etc. All fairy tales. and every religion has them.

Whether one is fanatical about there being no god, or one is fanatical about there being a god...both are still fanatics.

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Whether one is fanatical about there being no god, or one is fanatical about there being a god...both are still fanatics.

yep
takes as much faith to believe we all came from a random explosion of stuff and eventually became people who have some idea of right and wrong, as it does to believe that a God made the universe and us, giving us souls and a sense of something bigger than us

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I was at a funeral for a friends mother last week. I always cringe when they pass around the collection plate. If you just pass it without putting anything in, people look at you funny and you don't want to appear disrespectful at a funeral. On the other hand, the money being collected isn't going to my friend's family - it's going to the church. For building expenses, staff, etc.. Where I wouldn't normally be putting my money. But wanting to avoid seeming like a skinflint asshat, I tossed in a few bucks. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has donated out of a sense of obligation rather than generosity.

WTF kind of church was that? I've never seen a collection plate at a funeral.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Whether one is fanatical about there being no god, or one is fanatical about there being a god...both are still fanatics.

I've seen this argument quite a bit (from numerous different posters in this thread and in others), but I've yet to meet anyone I would call "fanatical" about there being no god. There are certainly passionate atheists, but I can't possibly imagine an atheist being so fanatical that they would be a suicide bomber for their beliefs.

The overwhelming majority of atheists tend to have a live and let live view towards believers. So long as their religious views are kept private among the practitioners of a given faith, atheists don't really have a problem with people believing in "fairy tales" (to borrow a term from earlier in this thread). The reason atheists push back is because religion isn't being kept private. Whether it's teaching creationism in public schools, erecting monuments of the 10 commandments in public courtrooms, or discrimination against same-sex couples because of religious beliefs, the examples of religion entering the public sphere are numerous, and many atheists are very vocal in their opposition to this. It's a huge stretch to call them "fanatics" though.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Organized mainstream religions have been and continue to be the greatest cancer of humanity.

Wrong humanity is and always will be its own greatest cancer.

Organized religion has as much to do with the people that run it causing the problems then anything else.

Its just like people who bitch that there is no proof of god. Well to be honest people who believe in god or who subscribe to religion merely have faith that god is there, and there's nothing wrong with having faith. There's nothing wrong with worshiping if one desires that. there's nothing the matter with believing without seeing.

If there wasn't organized religion mankind wouldn't fall into a period of peace. We'd merely find another way to kill or destroy enmasse, whether based around race, or nationality or the fact that I feel that people that watch Sex in the City need to be cleaned from society.

Destroying in the name of god is a excuse mot a reason.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

yep
takes as much faith to believe we all came from a random explosion of stuff and eventually became people who have some idea of right and wrong, as it does to believe that a God made the universe and us, giving us souls and a sense of something bigger than us

This is a logical fallacy.

There's a substantial difference between accepting the best current scientific theories to explain the origins of the universe and life on Earth (and being willing to change one's beliefs if a better theory emerges) versus believing that an all-powerful magical being created everything. The latter requires faith whereas the former does not.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

yep
takes as much faith to believe we all came from a random explosion of stuff and eventually became people who have some idea of right and wrong, as it does to believe that a God made the universe and us, giving us souls and a sense of something bigger than us

No, not at all. We have evidence, theories, mathematical equations, etc. to describe (as a work in progress) how we got here. None of these involve God, so much more blind faith is involved in believing the latter.

Edit: Looks like a MarchHare had the same idea.

[Tiger]

As much as I love arguing religion, I'm not a good enough writer to give my points so I won't get into it.

But as per the OP, We have enough people on CP to get a idea statistically if this is true or not. The religious people may want to prove there point, and the atheists are usually scientific and therefore they would like the stats (hard number proof).

We should have a poll on here. basically it wouldn't be anything too accurate but it might help.

The Poll should be something like

Atheist, $0 to charity
Atheist, 1-100
Atheist, 100-1000
Atheist, 1000+
Religious (all religions) $0
Religious 1-100
Religous 100-1000
Religous 1000+

Or it can be % of income etc.

The charity should not include money donated to the church you attend but religious organizations like world vision count.

Would anybody be up to see if there is a trend...