Living together before marriage

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Nobody gets married believing they're going to get divorced. Life happens and I'd like to be able to keep things as uncomplicated as possible.

One could argue, and I'm sure her father would, that this is the same as saying "keep things as uncommited as possible"



It's not just a piece of paper. Marriage, especially weddings, are also expensive. There's a tonne of religious dogma behind marriage that I, as an atheist, want no part of. I also believe it to be a pretty outdated tradition. Marriage has also been used as a tool for discrimination in many areas of the world. I have a lot reasons to be against marriage.

Marriages don't have to be expensive, nor do they have to be religious. If a girl who you truely are commited to, and already financially tied to really wanted to go to the courhouse and get hitched would that really be a deal breaker. As for the discrimination angle, I think that's a bit of a cop out, are you really protesting marriage becasue Jack, and Jason can't get married in Texas?


Disagree. It's certainly a lot easier to keep your affairs separate in a common-law relationship. Yes it can be just as complicated as marriage if you let it become that way.

This, goes to the heart of the post I put up as you were adding this one. If you wan't to keep your affairs seperate then are you really as commited as you say you are, and can you blame her dad for being warry of the guy who wants to be the roommate with benefits for the rest of his life. I'd be willing to bet he has some concerns that by keeping yourself seperate, that you're ensuring that it's easier to split if something else comes along easier. Now I'm fairly certain that's not the case, but the perception could certainly be there.

See my notes above.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? I attend all of her immediate and extended family functions with her and her parents, attend every Holiday dinner, take her father to sporting events and golfing. Oh, and I also gave up my job, friends, family, and a city I loved living in to move with her to Victoria so she could be closer to her family. What else should I do to show this guy that I'm committed to his daughter?

I think you know what it is that you have to do... and you made it clear that you will not bend on it.

If you won't bend on your principles, why do you expect him to bend on his?

[opendoor]

I say screw it, stay in the hotel. Unless it'll cause problems between you and your girlfriend, it's probably not worth the hassle of having to spend 3 days in an awkward situation. Then again, I stopped caring what my girlfriend's family might think of me years ago.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

The more and more I think about this the more intrigued I become.

Rube,
You don't plan on marrying this girl, but I presume by the way you've been posting that you do see yourself with her for the long haul. Am I correct in this assumption?

Yes.

If I am, what are the plans in the future? Do you plan to have joint bank accounts?

No.

Buy a place together?

Maybe. I've never been too concerned with owning a house but I could see that changing.

Maybe have kids?

Not a chance.

For all intents and purposes be married?

Depends on what your definition of "being married" is.

If thats the case (it may be already for all I know), then I'd go back to my original question of why a piece of paper would be a deal breaker. Surely a breakup at that point isn't any more complicated by it.

If you don't plan to do any of those things, and for all intents and purposes to keep everything seperate for the rest of your lives, then I'd say if it was my daughter, I probably wouldn't be to warm to the idea either. I'd see that as more of a room mate she's sleeping with than a partner.

So you're saying marriage is the same thing, just add in a joint bank account and a name change?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'll take your word for it since you're easily more of an expert than I am. I only have firsthand experience and testimonials to go by. Do you have any links or anything on this kind of stuff?

Division of matrimonial property is usually by a straight forward formula under provincial legislation. Common law involves complicated arguments around constructive and resulting trusts.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think you know what it is that you have to do... and you made it clear that you will not bend on it.

If you won't bend on your principles, why do you expect him to bend on his?

I don't expect him to bend on his because I know he won't. I'm just sick of having to give in on mine every time he asks us to jump through a hoop. I'm glad I have the open and accepting parents that I do.

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

See my notes above.

Yeah, I sort of answered that in a previous post. I've pretty much given up everything that's important to me to make her happy and keep her close to her family. If a piece of paper and a ring is more important to him than that, then he needs to get his priorities straight.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by troutman

Division of matrimonial property is usually by a straight forward formula under provincial legislation. Common law involves complicated arguments around constructive and resulting trusts.

So, if I understand this correctly, women are a pit of monetary and emotional despair?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So you're saying marriage is the same thing, just add in a joint bank account and a name change?

Not at all.

You're against marriage because of the mess it causes when you break up correct? Well that to me, based on what you've said above shows me that you're not anti marriage, you're anti commitment.

Think of these three situations.

I've got a room mate named Jim.
We have seperate bank accounts.
We never want to have children together.
We don't wan't to buy a house together.
If I don't want to live with Jim anymore, it's a pretty easy split because there is no commitment.

I've got a wife.
We live together.
All of our financial matters are tied together, through joint bank accounts etc.
We don't want kids, and we like renting.
If I don't want to live with her anymore, we've got to get a divorce and work out what belongs to who, becasue we commited to supporting each other, through thick and thin. If we break up, it could get ugly.

I've got a common law wife.
We live together.
All of our financial matters are tied together, through joint bank accounts etc.
We don't want kids, and we like renting.
If I don't want to live with her anymore, we've got to get a divorce and work out what belongs to who, becasue we commited to supporting each other, through thick and thin. If we break up, it could get ugly.

Which of those sounds most like you and your girlfriend?
Now what if I was having sex with Jim? It'd pretty much be the same as your relationship with your girl (minus one vagina of course).

I can pretty much guarantee that's how her dad sees it.

Yes you make the effort to go to her family functions, but I'll bet all her boyfrieds have, and you've probably done the same for all your girlfriends.
That's not commitment.

Yes you moved with her to so she could be near family. That's a great gesture, but still not a solid commitment. You could still easily pack up, and move home just as easily as I could find a new roommate.

I'm not saying I think what you're doing is wrong. I'm just trying to help you see why her dad probably doesn't recognize any commitment, and in turn doesn't give you the respect you deserve.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, I come from a home where marriage has had pretty negative effect on several lives. My issues with marriage have very little to do with the insignificance of it, and more to do with the horrors surrounding failed marriages.

No offence, dude. But it's the people in the relationship (any relationship) that make it or break it. Your issues aren't with marriage; they're with your parents. The symbol of unity represented by marriage is supposed to galvanize the intention of each individual to approach life as a unit. It is successful only based on that commitment, not voodoo magic. People aren't "meant" to be together - they choose to be together and then work at it. Common-law functions the same with only with less intention involved, likely resulting in less success (how many people do you know celebrate their 20th, 30th, 40th anniversary of common-law? although i'm not saying it can't be done!)

As per Dad, he lends more credence in the symbolism of marriage and what it represents. He wants the best for his daughter long-term and you obviously haven't convinced him that you do as well. And why? Well, it's obvious - he's a insane control freak, duh! Or perhaps he loves his daughter more than anything in the world but, like most crusty old fathers, professes it in prickly, over-protective ways. Try respecting him for that instead of whining about your own hurt feelings.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I sort of answered that in a previous post. I've pretty much given up everything that's important to me to make her happy and keep her close to her family. If a piece of paper and a ring is more important to him than that, then he needs to get his priorities straight.

Like I said before, it may be more important to him, because it represents a concrete commitment.

Packing up and moving, and giving up a lot, is a huge gesture, but in the end you're still able to make a pretty clean break. To him it's not a matter of priorities, it's a matter of being certain that you are as commited as you say you are, and what you see as trying not to complicate things, he more than likely sees as you trying to keep yourself from being "Tied down".

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Yes you moved with her to so she could be near family. That's a great gesture, but still not a solid commitment. You could still easily pack up, and move home just as easily as I could find a new roommate.

I'm not saying I think what you're doing is wrong. I'm just trying to help you see why her dad probably doesn't recognize any commitment, and in turn doesn't give you the respect you deserve.

I think that's where him and I are at odds on the philosophy of marriage. I don't see being married as a deterrent to splitting up. Like I said, people don't get married with the idea that they'll get divorced, yet it happens 40% of the time. I just don't see marriage as any more of a commitment than what we already have, yet it's twice as complicated and more expensive.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by zuluking

No offence, dude. But it's the people in the relationship (any relationship) that make it or break it. Your issues aren't with marriage; they're with your parents. The symbol of unity represented by marriage is supposed to galvanize the intention of each individual to approach life as a unit. It is successful only based on that commitment, not voodoo magic. People aren't "meant" to be together - they choose to be together and then work at it. Common-law functions the same with only with less intention involved, likely resulting in less success (how many people do you know celebrate their 20th, 30th, 40th anniversary of common-law? although i'm not saying it can't be done!)

Yes and there's a 40% statistical chance that it ends poorly. I know several people who celebrate common-law anniversaries - and many people here know my stance on anniversaries.

As per Dad, he lends more credence in the symbolism of marriage and what it represents. He wants the best for his daughter long-term and you obviously haven't convinced him that you do as well. And why? Well, it's obvious - he's a insane control freak, duh! Or perhaps he loves his daughter more than anything in the world but, like most crusty old fathers, professes it in prickly, over-protective ways. Try respecting him for that instead of whining about your own hurt feelings.

Except what he thinks is best for his daughter isn't just because he says or thinks so. This is where he gets into trouble with both me and her. Where my parents say 'Here's some advice, now the choice is yours,' her dad says 'Here's my advice, and you're a bad person and a failure if you don't take it.' And then he proceeds to ram his advice/beliefs down your throat until you agree with him (this usually ends up in yelling match between him and my girlfriend).

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think that's where him and I are at odds on the philosophy of marriage. I don't see being married as a deterrent to splitting up. Like I said, people don't get married with the idea that they'll get divorced, yet it happens 40% of the time. I just don't see marriage as any more of a commitment than what we already have, yet it's twice as complicated and more expensive.

Fair enough, but your last statement is a little telling, I think.
You say you don't see marriage as more of a commitment, yet you say it's twice as complicated, why is that?

I'd say becasue you've made a formal commitment, and are now obligated to make sure that think or thin, the other person will be supported and taken care of, financially, and in any other number of ways, and it goes both ways. That's what makes a real commitment, being willing to take on an obligation. As it stand right now, despite how much you love her, and how much you've given up to be with her, your only obligation is to pay half the rent.

It may not even be the marriage/piece of paper that her dad is upset about, it may be your attitude about keeping your lives seperate. Common law, or full on marriage, I'd be willing to bet her dad doesn't warm up untill you've made some sort of gesture to say you're willing to take on the obligation of supporting his daughter, financially or otherwise.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

It may not even be the marriage/piece of paper that her dad is upset about, it may be your attitude about keeping your lives seperate. Common law, or full on marriage, I'd be willing to bet her dad doesn't warm up untill you've made some sort of gesture to say you're willing to take on the obligation of supporting his daughter, financially or otherwise.

That's definitely part of it. He's told her that she should be going to school and I should be paying to support her, despite the fact that he has not told me how to activate the mint in my body that dispenses currency out of my ass.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

It may not even be the marriage/piece of paper that her dad is upset about, it may be your attitude about keeping your lives seperate. Common law, or full on marriage, I'd be willing to bet her dad doesn't warm up untill you've made some sort of gesture to say you're willing to take on the obligation of supporting his daughter, financially or otherwise.

That'd be a reasonable position for the father to have if he wasn't letting his son bring home girls and sleep with them in his basement. Sure a lot of people have sexist double standards in that regard, but that doesn't mean the OP should have to jump through hoops to accommodate them.

[J pold]

First let me say: rubecube, isn't this the girl that you where suppose to break up with in the summer?

Just read most of this thread, some really good discussion going on regarding an issue that I've been thinking about often as of late. To address the original question, I'll go with the majority and say that if it's his house, his rules, I would respect them. I have two little sisters who I am very close with and if they came and stayed at my place (when/if I have one of my own) with there boyfriends I would request that they don't sleep in the same bed. This summer when I went to visit my sister in Victoria her boyfriend was there and she made him sleep on the couch while I was staying with her, he understood and I respected him for that.

In regards to the issue of marriage I, like rubecube come from a divorced family that had a very rough break up. I know one of my younger sisters shares rubecube's views on marriage, outdated, unnecessary, and has told our family openly that she will never get married or have children. I'm fine with it, so are the rest of my siblings and father, my mom, who was raised Mormon is disappointed but after her divorce from my father I think she understands why.

My own personal views on marriage are rather skeptical, however I'm not outright opposed. If I meet the right person than certainly I would consider getting married to them, however I would never do it because "we just should" or "we've been together so long so why not?".

[yads]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's definitely part of it. He's told her that she should be going to school and I should be paying to support her, despite the fact that he has not told me how to activate the mint in my body that dispenses currency out of my ass.

So this begs the question. If she wanted to go to school and it was her idea (ie. not influenced by her father,) would you support her financially?

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes and there's a 40% statistical chance that it ends poorly. I know several people who celebrate common-law anniversaries - and many people here know my stance on anniversaries.

I'll say it again: 40% of marriages break up due to the people involved and the inability to maintain a mutual commitment to each other, NOT due to the institution and symbology of marriage which merely represents the mutual commitment.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Except what he thinks is best for his daughter isn't just because he says or thinks so. This is where he gets into trouble with both me and her. Where my parents say 'Here's some advice, now the choice is yours,' her dad says 'Here's my advice, and you're a bad person and a failure if you don't take it.' And then he proceeds to ram his advice/beliefs down your throat until you agree with him (this usually ends up in yelling match between him and my girlfriend).

Are "my parents" the same ones that put you through the horrors of a failed marriage?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by J pold

First let me say: rubecube, isn't this the girl that you where suppose to break up with in the summer?

Yes. Things worked themselves out. She did something pretty brutal that royally pissed me off, it brought up a bunch of other issues I had repressed, but I eventually got over it. We're good now.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by yads

So this begs the question. If she wanted to go to school and it was her idea (ie. not influenced by her father,) would you support her financially?

If I had the money I would. I'm currently not in a financial state to afford that kind of luxury. What do you want to bet his view would be on her supporting me going to school?

Originally Posted by zuluking

I'll say it again: 40% of marriages break up due to the people involved and the inability to maintain a mutual commitment to each other, NOT due to the institution and symbology of marriage which merely represents the mutual commitment.

Or, you know, people changing and not having the same priorities or feelings towards each other down the line.

[/quot]Are "my parents" the same ones that put you through the horrors of a failed marriage?[/quote]

Yep. Their relationship with each other doesn't mean they were bad parents to me and my sister.