The thread started with someone pointing out the obvious.
ANYWAY, if the religious among us are tired of us holier-than-thou types sensationalizing (or, apparently, mentioning) these men-of-the-cloth-raping-children stories, y'all shouldn't bitch, you should fight back.
Every time a representative of an international non-god-believer group gets arrested for humping a nine-year old, post the story on here. That will even things up right away.
Good idea, but unfortunately it doesnt work very well, the vast majority of people can be tenuously tied to any number religious organizations. How many atheists here have been baptized? Commit a crime and you can be easily traced back to whatever organization you may have been associated with however many years ago against your will or whatnot.
"Oh, you're not (insert religion here), you're an atheist? Do you carry a card, or have any other form of proof? No? Well, we see here that you've been previously identified as (whatever)."
Case closed, statistic added.
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I waded through the 5 pages briefly and didn't see the argument so I'm going to mention it. Apologies if it was brought up already.
I think the very sore spot about church sexual abuse is that for a long LONG time it was basically sanctioned. It was definitely tolerated. There were priests and bishops (and other 'holy' men) that didn't hide it from their peers or their elders. And only when it became a problem with the congreation were they moved. Read: Not disciplined, not kicked out, not arrested. Moved to another parish/church.
It was a full blown conspiracy that the church has only admitted to and started dealing with very recently in terms of the story's age.
I'm not saying that priests are more likely to abuse than others. (Though some might) Nor am I saying that religious people behave worse than sickos on the playground.
The difference that DID exist for a very long time though, was that the sicko on the playground got charged when he was caught. The priest just got a job transfer.
Add that to the fact the these people are put into a position of trust AND attempt to hold themselves above others, it all lends itself to what makes people very sore about the subject.
I can see how it might feel that religious organizations get picked on. But the sad fact is, the backlash is just natural balancing out for these organizations past (and still sometimes present) behaviour. There are many MANY differences between the priest and the sicko on the playground. Both in practicality and morality.
No that doesn't include everyone, and no that doesn't include you, or your friend, or your neighbours dog. So don't read it if you don't want. And don't take it personally.
I think one of the things that is getting glossed over here is that there is a fiduciary duty owed by a Priest that is above and beyond that expected of a 'common person'.
A lawyer breaching a client's trust is dealt with more harshly than a good friend breaking the same person's trust. I would be dealt with more harshly for insider trading than most people off of the street would.
WHat is outrageous is the fact that commonly these abusers are treated less harsh by the law (since money can buy 'forgiveness' and charges are withdrawn) than a pervert at the playground.
How many male school teachers who are even accused (let alone charged) of inappropriate contact with a girl will ever teach again? Yet time and time again we see these Priests simply get shuffled to a new area.
Aah, the dreaded homosexual lobby, backed up by "scientists". Could their be a more nefarious alliance?
One problem with that is that most (I would think) pedophiles are men preying on girls. What does the "homosexual lobby" get out of giving them an excuse? Nothing. They actually lose on that deal.
If you are going to call priests molesting boys a homosexual thing, you'll have to agree that men preying on girls is a hetero concern, no? You want to be tossed in that barrel? Me neither.
Being a homosexual means you have sex with members of your own sex. If they happen to be children then you are also a pedophile. Same with heterosexuals. The reason why the homosexual lobby would prefer you view pedophiles as a category of it's own(without orientation) is because of the high percentage of homosexual pedophiles per capital. Take the percentage of of the population who has engaged in homosexual sex and compare that to the percentage of children who has been sexually abused by a member of their own sex. You will find a much larger problem amongst practicing homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. The homosexual lobby hiding this fact is on par with the Catholic church(or an other protestant church) down playing the problems they are having with pedophilia within their community. The low road is denial which leads nowhere. The high road is to acknowledge the problem and make measures to protect the vulnerable while exploring the underlying causes. You can't take the high road while still cruising on the low road.
Regarding the "nefarious alliance"(love the name); unfortunately I can't blame scientists this time. I'd love to but it wouldn't be accurate. There has only been 2 small studies that have suggested they're might be a genetic link to the practice of homosexuality. To the best of my knowledge both of these studies acknowledge that more research needs to be done before any definitive conclusions can be drawn. Unfortunately the media along with the homosexual lobby have transformed "a possible link" into "proof" of a genetic cause for homosexuality. There is your "nefarious alliance".
Take the percentage of of the population who has engaged in homosexual sex and compare that to the percentage of children who has been sexually abused by a member of their own sex. You will find a much larger problem amongst practicing homosexuals compared to heterosexuals. The homosexual lobby hiding this fact is on par with the Catholic church(or an other protestant church) down playing the problems they are having with pedophilia within their community. The low road is denial which leads nowhere. The high road is to acknowledge the problem and make measures to protect the vulnerable while exploring the underlying causes. You can't take the high road while still cruising on the low road.
You know what's disturbing about you CB is that you constantly throw out tripe as if it was unquestionable fact. Again and again in many different threads you do this without providing links/studies/evidence and I can only conclude that you are knowingly, sinfully lying to promote your own personal agenda. When challenged you then proceed to avoid answering direct questions, which I've no doubt you will now.
Of course you can prove me wrong by pointing me to a "scientific" (not some mumbo jumbo rant) that backs up your point.
Here's a conclusion of a literature review of what you just claimed.
Quote:
Conclusion The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.
Take the percentage of of the population who has engaged in homosexual sex and compare that to the percentage of children who has been sexually abused by a member of their own sex. You will find a much larger problem amongst practicing homosexuals compared to heterosexuals.
Is that right?
Take the percentage of evangelical christians who beat their children and compare that to the number of normal people who don't beat their children. You will find a much larger problem amongst practicing evangelicals compared to normal people.
See how that works?
Also, it is kind of curious that you are vehemently opposed to gay men getting married, but also insist that they are likely to be child molesters. I mean which way is it? Do they want to marry a man or do they want to be wearing a raincoat on a hot day along the third-base line of a t-ball game?
I think this is a large problem in catholicism, that causing clergy to pent up their natural instincts and desires in constant cycles of burying them with a blind eye and treating their own psyches with constant redoubt and cycles of guilt because celibacy is made mandatory eventually manifests itself in such disturbing ways. It's a shame really, but these are real psychological problems and not just evil people.
[St.] Paul always complained about the thorn in his side (many theologians think this refers to sexual temptation). Well if you focus on the thorn too much...
Take the percentage of evangelical christians who beat their children and compare that to the number of normal people who don't beat their children. You will find a much larger problem amongst practicing evangelicals compared to normalpeople.
Until you can substantiate that, the value of your statement equals turd. I certainly don't buy it unless you are referring to spanking as being 'beating' your kids. Thanks for separating the religious from a normal person, well put.
Until you can substantiate that, the value of your statement equals turd. I certainly don't buy it unless you are referring to spanking as being 'beating' your kids. Thanks for separating the religious from a normal person, well put.
Uh, I think you should read what he wrote a second time.
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Uh, I think you should read what he wrote a second time.
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Well I've been ignoring Calgaryborn as best as possible because he doesn't want to be diplomatic at all. So if Rouge re-worded his comments to make a point against CB then sorry Rouge that's my fault man.
Now, that Fleury's story is coming to light, I swear I am not leaving any kids alone with any Catholic priests, or any overweight lonely hockey coaches/agents.
You know what's disturbing about you CB is that you constantly throw out tripe as if it was unquestionable fact. Again and again in many different threads you do this without providing links/studies/evidence and I can only conclude that you are knowingly, sinfully lying to promote your own personal agenda. When challenged you then proceed to avoid answering direct questions, which I've no doubt you will now.
Of course you can prove me wrong by pointing me to a "scientific" (not some mumbo jumbo rant) that backs up your point.
Here's a conclusion of a literature review of what you just claimed.
This thread has been all about attacking the Catholic church for their actions and lack of action regarding pedophilia within the ranks of their clergy. It has been suggested that the practice of celibacy contributes to the occurrences of sexual assaults on children. It has been suggested that pedophilia is more common within the Catholic clergy than without. It has been suggested that the church has been more likely to cover such acts up than the rest of society and is still actively doing so. Yet for none of these assertions did you call them out for lack of proof. Where is the call for scientific studies from them? How hypocritical of you!
I base my claim that homosexuals have a higher percentage of pedophiles in their ranks on simple math. I've never heard a creditable source that puts the number of homosexuals within society at higher than 7%. Yet the occurrence of same sex pedophile cases appear to be quit high. That suggests more pedophiles per capital and/or more active pedophiles within the homosexual community. I categorically reject the notion that a man who is having oral or anal sex with a boy is not a homosexual because of the age of his partner. If you are having sex with someone of the same sex regardless of their age you are committing a homosexual act and are by definition a homosexual.
Your Dr Gregory Herek obviously disagrees with me but then it would be in his best interest to muddy the waters. He is a career lobbyist for homosexual causes. Everything from same sex marriage to sexual orientation discrimination laws, he has been right on the front lines. He even worked for the Clinton administration as a liaison to the homosexual community. He is hardly an unbiased observer.
Most of these molestation cases are in the North American branches of the church. If we're going to generalize about the Catholics church, then we should probably generalize North Americans as pedophiles as well.
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This thread has been all about attacking the Catholic church for their actions and lack of action regarding pedophilia within the ranks of their clergy.
Which you decided to turn into a homosexuals are more predisposed to being pedophiles thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
I categorically reject the notion that a man who is having oral or anal sex with a boy is not a homosexual because of the age of his partner. If you are having sex with someone of the same sex regardless of their age you are committing a homosexual act and are by definition a homosexual.
Let me just substitute 5 few key parts to help you understand how stupid that statement is. (Bolded for effect).
"I categorically reject the notion that a man who is having oral or anal sex with a girl is not a heterosexual because of the age of his partner. If you are having sex with someone of the different sex regardless of their age you are committing a heterosexual act and are by definition a heterosexual."
And there you have it in the world of CB.
no same sex pedophilia to see here. Can't have that. Not PC.
Pedophiles are only attracted to children of the opposite sex. At least the're not gay. Praise the Lord!!!! Jesus is happy. Clap clap clappy clap clap clap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Your Dr Gregory Herek obviously disagrees with me but then it would be in his best interest to muddy the waters. He is a career lobbyist for homosexual causes. Everything from same sex marriage to sexual orientation discrimination laws, he has been right on the front lines. He even worked for the Clinton administration as a liaison to the homosexual community. He is hardly an unbiased observer.
LOL! Always trying to find the negative in people.
Yes, yes, yes .....no argument ... he has an agenda .... whatever you say.
The thing is, it's not him that disagrees with you. All he was doing was a literature review. Maybe you can go away for a bit and find an agenda with the authors of all the papers he reviewed.
Or you could re-review the papers yourself....... do your own conclusions.
Now ... have you got any proof that gays are more likely to be pedophiles or will you admit it's just your own biased, hateful, ignorant, blinded, intolerant everything that goes against what Jesus teaches opinion? Who's the hypocrite here?
Present the evidence.
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Most of these molestation cases are in the North American branches of the church. If we're going to generalize about the Catholics church, then we should be should probably generalize North Americans as pedophiles as well.
Or it could be because in most parts of europe the catholic priests are married and don't practice celibacy. I wonder how many of these western priests always knew they were weird and thought they could hide their problem by becoming a priest. Or worst yet, decide to use the church to get away with it.
This thread has been all about attacking the Catholic church for their actions and lack of action regarding pedophilia within the ranks of their clergy. It has been suggested that the practice of celibacy contributes to the occurrences of sexual assaults on children. It has been suggested that pedophilia is more common within the Catholic clergy than without. It has been suggested that the church has been more likely to cover such acts up than the rest of society and is still actively doing so. Yet for none of these assertions did you call them out for lack of proof. Where is the call for scientific studies from them? How hypocritical of you!
Hey, if one person makes unsubstantiated claims without being called on it, then no one can be called on it! That's the kind of thing my 5 year old says; if the other kid can have desert before supper, why can't he?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Yet the occurrence of same sex pedophile cases appear to be quit high. That suggests more pedophiles per capital and/or more active pedophiles within the homosexual community.
Source? Appears doesn't mean anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
I categorically reject the notion that a man who is having oral or anal sex with a boy is not a homosexual because of the age of his partner. If you are having sex with someone of the same sex regardless of their age you are committing a homosexual act and are by definition a homosexual.
So you are saying that having sex with someone of the opposite sex regardless of their age is a heterosexual so they are by definition a heterosexual?
And even if it was true (that the instance of same sex incidents among pedophiles being higher than the general population), so what? Correlation does not equal causation.
And it certainly doesn't mean anything with respect to your imaginary problem about the homosexual community.. The Catholic Church is an organization with a hierarchy of decision makers and explicit policies with direct control of their employees (for lack of a better term). So they as an organization are responsible for the decisions they make.
The homosexual community is just that, a bunch of individuals. To expect them to take the same kind of responsibility that the Catholic Church is taking is silly.. By that logic, you should be angry against all those with moustaches because they don't take responsibility for all people with moustaches who are pedophiles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Your Dr Gregory Herek obviously disagrees with me but then it would be in his best interest to muddy the waters. He is a career lobbyist for homosexual causes. Everything from same sex marriage to sexual orientation discrimination laws, he has been right on the front lines. He even worked for the Clinton administration as a liaison to the homosexual community. He is hardly an unbiased observer.
So who would be unbiased? Someone who is AGAINST freedom and equality and human rights?
Your posts do more harm to the moderate reasonable Christian than 100 atheists posting could ever do...
Or it could be because in most parts of europe the catholic priests are married and don't practice celibacy. I wonder how many of these western priests always knew they were weird and thought they could hide their problem by becoming a priest. Or worst yet, decide to use the church to get away with it.
I think a big part of it is that some men with pedophilic tendencies don't realize they are sick, so instead of getting therapy, they think that God can cure them if they dedicate their lives to the church. Eventually, they give in to their sickness because they are not properly treated.
In Europe, joining the clergy is viewed as more of an honour than a place to try and hide. Priests are often active in the community and are more visible than here. They (priests) seem to be a lot more social in Europe in general.
BTW, thanks for not pointing out the double typing in that post..
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I think a big part of it is that some men with pedophilic tendencies don't realize they are sick, so instead of getting therapy, they think that God can cure them if they dedicate their lives to the church. Eventually, they give in to their sickness because they are not properly treated.
A lot of the men joining the clergy do so in their teens. I don't think its a case of pedophiles joining the clergy to gain access, its a culture of apologetics and an organization that has for many centuries hid, deflected and ignored a real serious problem.
Celibacy is a real concern, for any normal healthy sexual human we can all attest to what lack of sex does for us, and if you imagine a life without it I can't imagine what that does psychologically.
Quote:
In Europe, joining the clergy is viewed as more of an honour than a place to try and hide. Priests are often active in the community and are more visible than here. They (priests) seem to be a lot more social in Europe in general.
I don't see where this is the case, I know in Europe there is a lot more what you'd call 'traditional catholics' as opposed to 'religious catholics.'
Europe is very much about traditions, even though in much of Europe secularism is common place.
Its just beyond offensive and ignorant what calgaryborn tries to suggest, its the same things his Christian right has done for 100's of years in response to gay people, suggesting that its the result of all kinds of things, and its nothing new.
I'm sure CB has a real hard time with the soon to be fact that people are born with gay tendancies, I mean 'God' made everyone in his image right?
So he like most of his backwards brethren have to pretend the science, the truth of what we know is true. Deny Evolution, deny science, its all part and parcel of his backwards evangelical nonsense.
What a pretty bubble it must be to live in this world of denial.
