Pierre Elliott Trudeau: a man who was ahead of his time

[bcb]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

O'RLY?

OK, I concede I was wrong. However, from that article, it seems to only suggest NB is a bilingual province (which the Canada Act of 1982 guarantees).

There is no suggestion that store signage, for example, must have French lettering twice the size of the English, like in Quebec.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by nik-

I don't see the part of the Conservative's plan to gain votes in the east which financially guts a province.

Nope, and this is exactly the problem. in 1979, with a weak minority government, Clark tried to push through a budget that contains a massive increase to gasoline taxes (despite his election campaign of lower taxes just months earlier), in a model that benefited the federal government and hurt every province except Alberta. Clark really set up that Alberta vs. the rest of Canada political divide, and made it politically strategic for Trudeau to counteract that with a policy that screwed Alberta over. Which isn't to blame Clark for the NEP: the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the 1980 Liberals. But had Clark and Crosbie not made an absolute boondoggle of a budget in 1979, the NEP never happens.

[MaDMaN_26]

I remember a while ago CBC was doing a vote for the 10 most interesting (or something like that) Canadians in history and then they showed a 1 hour biography on that person... I watched the PET one without really intending to and being I was too young to really remember the mortgage crisis of the 80's or the NEP, (plus I was a kid and it was politics - blech) I walked away thinking wow that guy was cool... he had this dynamic personality, was interesting and was treated like a rock star according to that, obviously, extremely biased show on CBC. It wasn't until after when I mentioned it to my parents that I heard about all the bad... and so then I started doing my own reading up on it... and quickly understood I had been mislead. The show did not highlight the bad or even present his legacy with a balanced approach it was pretty much historical propoganda...

Knowing more now I can't see how anyone would consider him to be a good prime minister, memorable? yes. Is it a shame we have not had another person leading this country that Canadians can get excited or passionate about? yes. Was he a good PM? No...

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by bcb

Obviously the metric system is superior to the imperial system, but I'd hardly credit Trudeau for making that decision.

According to this graphic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_metrication.svg

Canada was one of the last countries to go metric. My question for Trudeau would be: What were you waiting for?

I wish we were still waiting. I hate metric.

Everything I have to fix something like a car or a shed I need two toolboxes!

Originally Posted by octothorp

Nope, and this is exactly the problem. in 1979, with a weak minority government, Clark tried to push through a budget that contains a massive increase to gasoline taxes (despite his election campaign of lower taxes just months earlier), in a model that benefited the federal government and hurt every province except Alberta. Clark really set up that Alberta vs. the rest of Canada political divide, and made it politically strategic for Trudeau to counteract that with a policy that screwed Alberta over. Which isn't to blame Clark for the NEP: the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the 1980 Liberals. But had Clark and Crosbie not made an absolute boondoggle of a budget in 1979, the NEP never happens.

The most ironic thing about the Clark budget was that it was the 6-member Socred Green Party of Quebec that made the difference in the vote that toppled the Clark government. Guess how many seats the party got in the subsequent election? ZERO. They were totally stupid and conned by Trudeau.

[MarchHare]

Knowing more now I can't see how anyone would consider him to be a good prime minister, memorable? yes. Is it a shame we have not had another person leading this country that Canadians can get excited or passionate about? yes. Was he a good PM? No...

He certainly left a very mixed legacy, and whether he can be considered a "good" PM depends greatly on one's POV. His economic policies were pretty poor all-around. Obviously those in Alberta who suffered under the NEP will consider him to be a terrible PM, and their criticism is certainly justified. However, amongst other accomplishments, he patriated Canada's constitution, gave us the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and defeated the separatists in Quebec's 1980 referendum.

Wikipedia's article on him seems to be pretty reasonably balanced, which isn't surprising given that it was written both by those who support and oppose him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_trudeau

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If Alberta still has a case for being distrustful of the Liberals and feel alienated by the party, then Quebec still has a case to made when taking extremes to protect their culture. Personally, I think both are living in the past and believe in conspiracies that no longer exist (if they ever really did).

The past? It almost happened again! Like... a year ago!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

The past? It almost happened again! Like... a year ago!

So, the Green Shift is another anti-Alberta conspiracy?




Not every innitiative and program is going to be good for everyone, but it doesn't mean they are out to get you either.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by bcb

You're kidding, right?

No.

IMO the way the metric system was brought in in Canada is, and always will be, a huge pain in the a$$ for Canadians as long as the US keeps using the imperial system.

I believe there should have been much more effort to coordinate the move from imperial to metric with the US. However, Trudeau and the Liberals were much more inclined to go it alone.

I wonder what the cost has been, and continues to be, in terms of money, time, and human effort to convert back and forth from metric to imperial. As a geologist, I know what it has meant for me.

And I am not debating what is the better system. Obviously metric makes more sense in the long run, but let's face it, the imperial system will always be with us to some degree.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

No.

IMO the way the metric system was brought in in Canada is, and always will be, a huge pain in the a$$ for Canadians as long as the US keeps using the imperial system.

I believe there should have been much more effort to coordinate the move from imperial to metric with the US. However, Trudeau and the Liberals were much more inclined to go it alone.

I wonder what the cost has been, and continues to be, in terms of money, time, and human effort to convert back and forth from metric to imperial. As a geologist, I know what it has meant for me.

And I am not debating what is the better system. Obviously metric makes more sense in the long run, but let's face it, the imperial system will always be with us to some degree.

Lbs for Lbs I agree.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

So, the Green Shift is another anti-Alberta conspiracy?

Is that Michael Moore?

Thankfully we didn't get to find out if the Green Shift was an anti-Alberta conspiracy.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

No.

IMO the way the metric system was brought in in Canada is, and always will be, a huge pain in the a$$ for Canadians as long as the US keeps using the imperial system.

I believe there should have been much more effort to coordinate the move from imperial to metric with the US. However, Trudeau and the Liberals were much more inclined to go it alone.

I wonder what the cost has been, and continues to be, in terms of money, time, and human effort to convert back and forth from metric to imperial. As a geologist, I know what it has meant for me.

And I am not debating what is the better system. Obviously metric makes more sense in the long run, but let's face it, the imperial system will always be with us to some degree.

It's interesting how we have the metric system in Canada, but when asked how much you weigh or how tall you are, most people reply back in lbs and feet/inches. My European friends always thought that was weird when I was over there

[Sparks]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

IMO the way the metric system was brought in in Canada is, and always will be, a huge pain in the a$$ for Canadians as long as the US keeps using the imperial system.

Maybe in some industries (of which I'm not very familiar) but it seems to me like your average Joe in Canada is imperial/metric bilingual to some degree.

[MelBridgeman]

Oh come on Quebec separation is the biggest money fraud in Canadain history (i mean good on them I suppose)

PET the good, the bad, the ugly...he certainly is the only PM in history who can raise so much passion from both sides of the scale..

[bcb]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

No.

IMO the way the metric system was brought in in Canada is, and always will be, a huge pain in the a$$ for Canadians as long as the US keeps using the imperial system.

I believe there should have been much more effort to coordinate the move from imperial to metric with the US. However, Trudeau and the Liberals were much more inclined to go it alone.

I wonder what the cost has been, and continues to be, in terms of money, time, and human effort to convert back and forth from metric to imperial. As a geologist, I know what it has meant for me.

And I am not debating what is the better system. Obviously metric makes more sense in the long run, but let's face it, the imperial system will always be with us to some degree.

Perahps that 'force of change' now occupying the White House could get the US with the program.

You are right. The sloppy conversion from imperial to metric nearly caused an air disaster (read Gimli Glider).

And you are also right in that the imperial system will always be with us...hopefully only on the football field.

[MarchHare]

You are right. The sloppy conversion from imperial to metric nearly caused an air disaster (read Gimli Glider).

That's actually an interesting point -- why did Air Canada start measuring fuel in kilograms rather than pounds when all other aviation measurements in North America (even to this day) use the imperial system? For example, altitude is always expressed in feet, and airspeed is measured in knots.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That's actually an interesting point -- why did Air Canada start measuring fuel in kilograms rather than pounds when all other aviation measurements in North America (even to this day) use the imperial system? For example, altitude is always expressed in feet, and airspeed is measured in knots.

I watched a show called "Mayday" which did a re-enactment. (You can watch it on discoverychannel.com.) According to the show, it was one fuel attendant who goofed. IIRC, he measured one fuel tank in Kg. and one in Lbs.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Dion

Reasons to hate Trudeau...... Communist sympathiser

This is a pretty simplistic statement. Hating the man is one thing, making statements like this is quite another. Canada never had the problem with Cuba like the USA and has not followed suit with the USA in regards to its foreign policy regarding Cuba. The USA is still at a stalemate with Cuba, you would prefer Canada had followed the lead of the USA?

Trudeau also visited China, and Russia, Communist regimes as well. As did Nixon and various other foreign leaders and dignitaries. So to visit a Communist country must make one a Communist sympathizer, right?

Visiting a country with a different system of government than we have does not make one a sympathizer to that system. It merely states that you are willing to have foreign relations with them. It does not say how far those negotiations will go, just that you do talk with that country and occasionally visit as well.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by redforever

This is a pretty simplistic statement. Hating the man is one thing, making statements like this is quite another. Canada never had the problem with Cuba like the USA and has not followed suit with the USA in regards to its foreign policy regarding Cuba. The USA is still at a stalemate with Cuba, you would prefer Canada had followed the lead of the USA?

Trudeau also visited China, and Russia, Communist regimes as well. As did Nixon and various other foreign leaders and dignitaries. So to visit a Communist country must make one a Communist sympathizer, right?

Visiting a country with a different system of government than we have does not make one a sympathizer to that system. It merely states that you are willing to have foreign relations with them. It does not say how far those negotiations will go, just that you do talk with that country and occasionally visit as well.

I don't disagree with this, but Castro did show up at PET funeral..one might say you are underestimating their relationship

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by bcb

Is that Michael Moore?

Thankfully we didn't get to find out if the Green Shift was an anti-Alberta conspiracy.

Hard to argue its a conspiracy when a near constant succession of Liberal leaders had nothing but disdain for Alberta - Trudeau, Chretien, Martin and the pretender to the throne.

Whether or not it was anti-Alberta, the Green Shaft was far more obvious and brazen in its goals of syphoning money from oil rich areas to buy votes in Ontario than the NEP ever was.

Fortunately, it was proposed by a guy almost universally considered a ######, which helped, and Alberta today is not the oil producing island it was in 1980. Taking aim at the O&G industry also creates huge concerns for BC, Saskatchewan and the Maritimes. Such proposals are now very easy to pick out as little more than attempts to force money into central Canada at the expense of the rest of the nation.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

I don't disagree with this, but Castro did show up at PET funeral..one might say you are underestimating their relationship

I don't care what their relationship was as long as that relationship never had negative impact on my country.

Reagan and Mulroney had a great personal relationship as did Reagan and Thatcher.

As long as the personal relationship of the leader of my country with the leader of a foreign country does not impact or influence the country I live on, I could care less. And if at all possible, I think it is better for Canada to have a friendly open relationships, as much as possible, with other countries. In most cases, leaving the door open for negotiations is always preferable than closing that door.