2009 NFL Training Camp and Preseason Thread.

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Eli is easily the most overrated quarterback in the league.

Did Donovan McNabb retire?

Eli isn't worthy of being the highest paid guy in the league but he is a very good QB (likely top 5) and the money he is getting isn't outrageous. considering how badly Cassel is getting overpaid this deal looks like a bargain.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Niners aren't close to signing Crabtree. Both sides agree they are far apart, and some rumblings from Crabtree's camp (although denied by both sides) that Crabtree is willing to sit out the year and re-enter the draft.

Has a player successfully done that in the NFL?

Mike Williams sat out a year before entering the NFL, so not 100% the same but very similar.

He was likely more talented/hyped than Crabtree and it killed him completely. Missed a year of development and he gained some very bad habits without the structure of a football program as well.

I think the major issue I would have is about his attitude. If he is willing to act like this it wouldn't appear to me that he has the right attitude/willingness to be a successful team player. If he is already this selfish before making a team how is he going to be after a few good games?

Not the kind of guy/behaviour that wins championships.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by moon

Did Donovan McNabb retire?

Nope, he's just third among active QBs in wins, fourth in winning %, has thrown for nearly 30,000 yards and 200 TDs, has the best TD:Int ratio of all-time, and has a career passer rating of 85.9. Yep, he's totally overrated .

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Nope, he's just third among active QBs in wins, fourth in winning %, has thrown for nearly 30,000 yards and 200 TDs, has the best TD:Int ratio of all-time, and has a career passer rating of 85.9. Yep, he's totally overrated .

And has come up big in about 0 important games for his team.

I am sure Manning would trade his great Superbowl performance and victory for all those pretty stats.

Maybe if McNabb is lucky this year his team will get him back to the NFC Championship game so he can choke it away again this year.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by moon

And has come up big in about 0 important games for his team.

I am sure Manning would trade his great Superbowl performance and victory for all those pretty stats.

Maybe if McNabb is lucky this year his team will get him back to the NFC Championship game so he can choke it away again this year.

So I guess Dan Marion and Dan Fouts were garbage compared to guys like Doug Williams and Trent Dilfer. Don't forget Jim Kelly, too.

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So I guess Dan Marion and Dan Fouts were garbage compared to guys like Doug Williams and Trent Dilfer. Don't forget Jim Kelly, too.

Trent Dilfer and Doug Williams weren't close to as talented as Eli is. Plus I didn't say that Eli was better than McNabb, just that McNabb was more overrated and that Eli wouldn't trade his Super Bowl for McNabb's stats.

I doubt that Williams or dilfer would trade their rings either.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by moon

Trent Dilfer and Doug Williams weren't close to as talented as Eli is. Plus I didn't say that Eli was better than McNabb, just that McNabb was more overrated and that Eli wouldn't trade his Super Bowl for McNabb's stats.

I doubt that Williams or dilfer would trade their rings either.

I'd say McNabb is a better QB talent-wise than Eli is. My point was that the Super Bowl has been won by many mediocre quarterbacks and Eli is one of them. Eli is going to get exposed this year without Plax.

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'd say McNabb is a better QB talent-wise than Eli is.

I agree with that but I think that it is much closer than you think it is. I think at the end of his career Manning could easily be seen as the better QB.

My point was that the Super Bowl has been won by many mediocre quarterbacks and Eli is one of them. Eli is going to get exposed this year without Plax.

Eli is much better than the mediocre QB's that have won the SB in the past.

Plaxico isn't that great and now that the team has had time to adjust to not having him Manning should be fine.

I don't think many teams would have done great losing their top WR unexpectedly late in the season.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by moon

I agree with that but I think that it is much closer than you think it is. I think at the end of his career Manning could easily be seen as the better QB.

Possibly. He's got a really good defense and a coach who believes in the run game (something McNabb has never had). I just don't understand how you can say McNabb is overrated. It's not like people have been calling him the best QB to ever play the game. Despite his injury history he's still easily a top 10 QB, and arguably top 5.

I agree his big game record isn't stellar, but if you go back and look at those games the losses were more to do with Andy Reid than McNabb.

Eli is much better than the mediocre QB's that have won the SB in the past.

Plaxico isn't that great and now that the team has had time to adjust to not having him Manning should be fine.

I don't think many teams would have done great losing their top WR unexpectedly late in the season.

Maybe, but Plax was a huge security blanket for Eli. Expect to see Eli toss up 15+ interceptions this year.

[moon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Possibly. He's got a really good defense and a coach who believes in the run game (something McNabb has never had). I just don't understand how you can say McNabb is overrated. It's not like people have been calling him the best QB to ever play the game. Despite his injury history he's still easily a top 10 QB, and arguably top 5.

I say he is overrated because too often I see people say Brady, Manning and McNabb. Perhaps it is because they feel the need to throw another name in with those 2 who are clearly better than anyone else in the league but to me he is way too often included with those guys.

Also, as evidenced by my earlier comments, I think he has really underperformed way to often in the big games and that really lowers him as a QB in my view.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by moon

I say he is overrated because too often I see people say Brady, Manning and McNabb. Perhaps it is because they feel the need to throw another name in with those 2 who are clearly better than anyone else in the league but to me he is way too often included with those guys.

Yeah, I wouldn't put him up with those two, but you could make an argument to slot him at the top of the next tier of guys (i.e. Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger).

As far as the big games go, I've seen McNabb win some pretty important games all by himself. I know they lost in last year's NFC Championship, but McNabb basically put the team on his back and carried them to as close as they were, only to be let down by the defense.

[carom]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Re Crabtree. I knew this was going to happen. He's going to be a headcase his whole career I bet. I'm not happy the Raiders took Bey, but I'm sure happy they didn't take this moron.

The Crabtree mess does seem to make the Raiders look smarter for passing on him. Did Al Davis do a little more digging then just looking at the 4.3 DHB put up in the combine and how it would fit his ‘vertical game’?

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Peyton gets mad... Eli just sulks. Talent wise, there's no comparison, IMO. Plus Peyton does better commercials.

That's a crock, they both whine. They both have the same demeanor, once just has superior skill. I dont' like either of them for their attitude when things don't go right.

Peyton goes and sits by himself and sulks like a 4 year old.

[ResAlien]

I'm jumping in. Hell no McNabb isn't overrated. IMO he's easily top 5 in the league. The Iggles front office? ######ed. How many times did he go to NFC championship games with the likes of Todd Pinkston, Freddy Mitchell, Greg Lewis as his WR's? C'mon, Donovan is effin awesome. Eli? Congrats on raping the Giants for a ludicrous contract when you can't carry a team to save your life. He's the 3rd best QB out of his draft class.

And yes, I'm an unabashed Eagles homer. Looking at the NFC East, you'd take Romo, Manning or Campbell over McNabb? If so, please tell me your dealer, because I want some of what you're smoking.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

That's a crock, they both whine. They both have the same demeanor, once just has superior skill. I dont' like either of them for their attitude when things don't go right.

Peyton goes and sits by himself and sulks like a 4 year old.

Compared to the rest of the NFL i'd hardly call the two Manning brothers whiners. I can count on a single hand the combined the times I've heard either blame a loss on there teammates or ever throw there couch under the bus. Manning haters love to hate

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

I'm jumping in. Hell no McNabb isn't overrated. IMO he's easily top 5 in the league. The Iggles front office? ######ed. How many times did he go to NFC championship games with the likes of Todd Pinkston, Freddy Mitchell, Greg Lewis as his WR's? C'mon, Donovan is effin awesome. Eli? Congrats on raping the Giants for a ludicrous contract when you can't carry a team to save your life. He's the 3rd best QB out of his draft class.

And yes, I'm an unabashed Eagles homer. Looking at the NFC East, you'd take Romo, Manning or Campbell over McNabb? If so, please tell me your dealer, because I want some of what you're smoking.

Well said. The Eagles would have had at least 2 more regular season wins last year if it wasn't for a few bogus calls by Reid. McNabb has been victim to this in at least a few of these big games he's accused of choking in over the last few years.

I'm really looking forward to the WR's that McNabb gets to throw to this year. Easily the best receiving corps he's ever had. If the offensive line can get healthy and remain that way (I'm looking at you, Shawn Andrews) then this is THE season of all seasons he should be judged on.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Looking at the NFC East, you'd take Romo, Manning or Campbell over McNabb? If so, please tell me your dealer, because I want some of what you're smoking.

Who is supposedly taking those guys over McNabb?

[ResAlien]

Dammit, don't make me try to argue when I'm drunk. To the comment "Eli Manning is the most overrated QB in the league" your response was "Did Donovan McNabb retire?". I assume then you'd take Eli over Donovan. I refer back to my previous post, Donovan is an amazing QB who is stuck with a crappy FO who won't do crap to help him and a coach that can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag. The one time they gave Donovan a decent WR? Superbowl. That they should have won, but that's an argument for another time.

I guess the point is I thought you were slamming Donovan, and in my mind he is without question the best QB in the NFC East, and #3 in the league right now behind brady and manning (payton)

[burn_baby_burn]

Scott Pioli has brought in another former New England Patriot, QB Matt Guitierrez. I really hope this guy (Pioli) knows what he is doing.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Compared to the rest of the NFL i'd hardly call the two Manning brothers whiners. I can count on a single hand the combined the times I've heard either blame a loss on there teammates or ever throw there couch under the bus. Manning haters love to hate

Show me where I said they blame their teammates publicly....as thet go off the field, and sit on the sidelines, they both pout. And both in the exact same manner.

And you Manning lovers will have to deal with some people criticizing, instead of the token line "Manning haters love to hate".

[Pagal4321]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ml?eref=sihpT1

A good read on the Crabtree madness. Gives good comparibles, but to a different sport.

Just nine years ago Matt Harrington, a highly touted high school pitcher out of Palmdale, Calif., was selected seventh overall by the Colorado Rockies. At the advice of his agent, Tommy Tanzer, Harrington rejected the team's $4.9 million offer and re-entered the 2001 draft. Then the 2002 draft. Then the 2003 draft. Then the 2004 draft. To make a long -- and ultimately tragic -- story short, at last check Harrington was earning $11.50 per hour installing tires at a Costco.