The Flames are Out in QC

[Tilley]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I guess it depends on the person. I tend to lean in sympathy towards what 604 says. I would not trade the Hitmen for the Baby Flames. Though, to be fair, I've seen only two AHL games in person, and both were the Edmonton Road Runners vs. Toronto's farm club (St. Johns at the time). So really, I don't exactly have an objective place to view the A from.

This is a similar point of view to people in Omaha who chose to watch a greatly inferior product in the Omaha Lancers of the USHL and/or the University of Nebraska Omaha Mavericks of the NCAA. Most people I talked to indicated that although they knew the Knights played better hockey people had a history with the other teams and were loyal to them. I think it comes down to familiarity. They followed the team that they were familiar with; they knew the players, the league, the traditions associated with the team.

The QC posters indicate people there wax poetic about the Mallards, which to people outside the QC seems ridiculous considering the level of play compared to the AHL. Unless they are serious hockey fans, most people don't care about the level of hockey as long as the team wins more than they lose, the games are fun and exciting, or it is considered the thing to do in town.

If the Flames ever want to have any sort of sustained sucess in the AHL the organization needs to find an ownership group with very deep pockets in a town with some but not a great history of hockey, a desire for professional sports and the ability or willingness to absorb losses for 2-3 years while people gradually discover the team. Or they could move the team to hockey mad Canada. Moving the team twice in three years only makes potential fans in a new town apprehensive to support the team if they are likely to move if things go south.

[PIMking]

Tilley,

I have stated before that if they didn't change the name of the team all these fans that use the excuse about the flames are not the mallards would make up some other excuse. they would bitch about something. Hell they probably wouldn't of known that the league had changed.

Attendance was falling for years here and went up last year but the sad fact is the fans here are spoiled and only accept winners. Nothing else matters.

[Tilley]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I have stated before that if they didn't change the name of the team all these fans that use the excuse about the flames are not the mallards would make up some other excuse. they would bitch about something. Hell they probably wouldn't of known that the league had changed.

Attendance was falling for years here and went up last year but the sad fact is the fans here are spoiled and only accept winners. Nothing else matters.

That's the point I tried to make. To the majority of people they don't care enough about hockey to invest their time and effort into a new team, especially if there is another team in town or if they have been jilted in the past. For a new team to survive there really has to be a lot of interest initially or the team must be given time to develop a following. Anchoring hopes on past successes without proper market analysis is what has gotten the Flames into this mess.

[dustygoon]

Not so fast...doesn't sound like it is a done deal.....Brian Burke apparently doesn't think the move has enough support from AHL teams.

As few as eight votes against extending the league's profile west of the Rockies would quash everything Lane Sweeting and his ownership group have been working on over the past two years.

"Nice partners," said Vancouver Giants owner Ron Toigo. "Putting an AHL team to Abbotsford would kill junior hockey in the Fraser Valley. Right away, Chilliwack can't compete. Nor can the (BCHL) Langley Chiefs for that matter. If they had no ties to our league, it's just business. But when you're a partner in anything, the goal is to make your partners succeed. And that's the issue I have."

Should it reach a vote, you'd have to think the Toronto Maple Leafs and New York Rangers would lobby their AHL affiliates to sway to the "nay" side of the equation. General managers Brian Burke and Glen Sather, respectively, are part owners of the Chilliwack Bruins, the team that will be most impacted by the arrival of the AHL.

"The only thing Brian has said to me is he isn't going to get involved because it isn't going to pass," said Darryl Porter, another Bruins owner who serves as its president and general manager. "It doesn't make sense if a bunch of teams don't come as a cluster."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...267/story.html

[dobbles]

even if the abbottsford deal falls through, i don't see them coming back. this is all happening because our local owners are losing too much money. unless calgary wants to subsidize the losses, i don't see them coming back here regardless of the abbottsford outcome. (and i don't see cgy subsidizing us either. thats why they wanted out of omaha)

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Tilley

That's the point I tried to make. To the majority of people they don't care enough about hockey to invest their time and effort into a new team, especially if there is another team in town or if they have been jilted in the past. For a new team to survive there really has to be a lot of interest initially or the team must be given time to develop a following. Anchoring hopes on past successes without proper market analysis is what has gotten the Flames into this mess.

well there was alot of intrest the very first game but nothing after that. Our owners were like watching kindergarten kids run a business. It's painful but yet funny all at the same time.

Too bad Mr. Voss was more worried about going out and partying with the players and buy everyone drinks instead of trying to market the team and make things work. oh well lol

[C_of_Red28]

Abbotsford would be sweet!!! Hope it works.. that way I can get some tickets to go watch!!

[kn]

QC lost $2.5 million over two years or $1.25 million/yr. Not to be flippant, but isn't that chump change for 'have' NHL teams like Calgary? Abbotsford sure doesn't look like a good destination because of the rivalry with the 'Nucks and the horrible travel.

[604flames]

Originally Posted by Tilley

As someone who was a season ticket holder in Lethbridge and then moved to Omaha and had the Knights arrive and leave, I simply do not understand this statement.

To each their own I guess.

I've been a STH for two different WHL teams, and have thoroughly enjoyed taking in games since my hometown snagged the Ice back in 1998.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by kn

QC lost $2.5 million over two years or $1.25 million/yr. Not to be flippant, but isn't that chump change for 'have' NHL teams like Calgary? Abbotsford sure doesn't look like a good destination because of the rivalry with the 'Nucks and the horrible travel.

The losses aren't Calgary's, they're the QC's.

If they wanted to, the Calgary owners could probably subsidize the QC owners, but with crappy attendance and the horrible marketing efforts by the QC ownership described in this thread, there's not really incentive for the Calgary team to keep the QC team propped up.

I don't know how the AHL/NHL partnerships usually work, but I'd guess that it costs the Calgary Flames roughly the same amount to have their AHL team in Omaha, Quad Cities, Abbotsford, or Balzac (Balzac would probably be the cheapest because the travel expenses when calling a player up from the farm would be much lower), and it would be up to the local ownership of the AHL franchise to sell the team to its local fan base and to make their money that way.



About whether or not the people of Abbotsford would support the Flames farm team, consider this: The Hamilton Bulldogs are the AHL affiliate of the Montreal Canadiens, the biggest rival of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Copps Colesium is 66km from the Air Canada Centre. The new arena is Abbotsford is 72km from GM Place.

If the Bulldogs can get a solid level of support in Hamilton, there's no reason the Flames affiliate couldn't be successful in Abbotsford.


The only concern I would have with putting a team in Abbotsford is the obvious travel concerns.

I wonder what the Flames' "Plan B" is if the AHL rejects the move to BC?

[greentree]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

A part of me was really hoping that somehow the whole Flames/Nucks farm team switcheroo thingy would happen.

Tons of Flames supporters in Manitoba (but then again the Moose are drawing lots of fans as well).

Sigh.

Me too. It may yet happen one day.

[Antithesis]

Wow ... how would a team based in Abbotsford make any money? They'd have to subsidize the travel costs for all of the other teams. There's no way they'd accept this otherwise.

[Reggie Dunlop]

First off:

I appreciate all the contributions of the Quad City posters the last two years. Best bunch of affiliate-based forum members here bar none.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I would have to think the Abbotsford group first approached the Canucks organization and were turned down. I think it was just last week that Vancouver renewed its affiliation deal with the Moose, so I would caution anyone not to get their hopes up that the Flames' AHL team ends up based in Winnipeg anytime soon.

Huge logistical issues going to the west coast, and I'm not sure the AHL rubberstamps this.

As for Darryl Sutter, the man has nothing to do with anything other than organizational hockey department decisions. If it didn't work out in Omaha or Quad City, pin the blame on Ken King.

[PIMking]

I dont blame Calgary for none of this! when the first report came out in december I honestly thought Sutter/King were working a deal to get out of here and Was pissed!

I was a flames fan before they came and will always be a Flames fan when they leave.

But there were things Calgary could of done to help a bit by getting us a pure scorer ( I also understand the farm system so that doesn't upset me) and possibly telling the circus down here how to do a couple of things.

Oh well.

[SparkyOne]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

First off:

I appreciate all the contributions of the Quad City posters the last two years. Best bunch of affiliate-based forum members here bar none.

Thanks, Reggie.

I thought they were just subsidizing the cost to get to Abbotsford, but, according to this article,

An Abbotsford Flames franchise must first win approval of 75 per cent of AHL team owners and that's far from a sure thing. Eight nay votes would kill it. Abbotsford must promise to cover all travel and accommodation costs for visiting teams to have any chance of winning AHL board approval.

Essentially, Abbotsford will be paying all travel costs for all 80 games in the season. Planes, buses, hotel...and meals?? Each team that goes to Abbotsford would play a 2-game set,, so they would be there 4-5 days at a minimum.

What happens if, in a year or so mid-season, they're running out of money and can't afford to live up to the agreement??!

[spuzzum]

Since I live in Abbotsford, I think this is the best news I've heard for a long long time. The arena fits 7,500 and I am sure it will be full. It will be awesome when the Manitoba Moose come to town. There is very little excitement in this town, it is a common complaint. Trust me, this city will fill that arena if the pricing is done right.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

Since I live in Abbotsford, I think this is the best news I've heard for a long long time. The arena fits 7,500 and I am sure it will be full. It will be awesome when the Manitoba Moose come to town. There is very little excitement in this town, it is a common complaint. Trust me, this city will fill that arena if the pricing is done right.

Good to hear you're on this side, going by your handle, I thought you were beyond Hope.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

Since I live in Abbotsford, I think this is the best news I've heard for a long long time. The arena fits 7,500 and I am sure it will be full. It will be awesome when the Manitoba Moose come to town. There is very little excitement in this town, it is a common complaint. Trust me, this city will fill that arena if the pricing is done right.

Considering they will have to pay all the travel for the away teams for 40 events its not going to be cheap.

Thats flights hotels so on and so forth. Plus all the traveling they will have to do.

[dobbles]

actually, thats one of the overlooked things here. playing in such an awful location i think will really wear on the players. i know talking with the guys that play for the texas teams, they are often exhausted with their travel. for houston, they often fly to chicago the day of games then take a bus across illinois to the QC. while abbottsford may have more direct flights (i honestly dont know) there will still be significant travel concerns. i think houston has something like 10 triple headers this season when they have games friday/saturday/sunday. that can wear on players. so often people talk about how teams want their affiliate close to their home city. thats great and all, but whats the point when they are so terribly jet lagged and exhausted?

for me it doesnt much matter as we have lost the team regardless. but i know if my team wanted to move their affiliate way they heck out there, i wouldn'y be happy about it.