Religions : Legitimate vs otherwise

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

the overall IQ of the human race would improve dramatically if all religion was abolished

not sure if we'd be smarter but we'd definately be more open minded.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

the overall IQ of the human race would improve dramatically if all religion was abolished

If you resort to forcefully abolishing any sort of belief you actually take a step backward in intelligence.

Yup, fascism is the only way.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by peter12

If you resort to forcefully abolishing any sort of belief you actually take a step backward in intelligence.

Yup, fascism is the only way.

Depends if that belief is actually "believable" ..some religions that people believe in are not very intelligent and are designed to keep you weak IMO.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Depends if that belief is actually "believable" ..some religions that people believe in are not very intelligent and are designed to keep you weak IMO.

That is true, but if you force someone to believe otherwise then you're being just as bad as the original belief right?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

the overall IQ of the human race would improve dramatically if all religion was abolished

There is a problem with your viewpoint.

Some people need to have something to hold onto to keep their sanity. It is something to hold on to to keep you from feeling alone. Some people need this.

Some people need to be followers of something that is "greater" than they are because they cannot handle the cruelties of the real world.

Some people who are in dire straights need some inspiration in order to get out of their situation.

In many cases, whether the person is conscious of it or not, they need a crutch to make themselves feel better about themselves, others and so the world so it makes sense to them.

People like you and I have no need for this particular crutch but to deny others this is not right either. Every man and woman needs to find the path that they feel most comfortable on, and if it is aided by religion, then so be it. Now if people could stop having pissing matches over the differences in their coping methods, then the world would be a far better place.

EDIT: My wording and grammar are probably horrible, but I'm so tired I don't think I'm clear enough to fix it now.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

There is a problem with your viewpoint.

Some people need to have something to hold onto to keep their sanity. It is something to hold on to to keep you from feeling alone. Some people need this.

Some people need to be followers of something that is "greater" than they are because they cannot handle the cruelties of the real world.

Some people who are in dire straights need some inspiration in order to get out of their situation.

In many cases, whether the person is conscious of it or not, they need a crutch to make themselves feel better about themselves, others and so the world so it makes sense to them.

People like you and I have no need for this particular crutch but to deny others this is not right either. Every man and woman needs to find the path that they feel most comfortable on, and if it is aided by religion, then so be it. Now if people could stop having pissing matches over the differences in their coping methods, then the world would be a far better place.

EDIT: My wording and grammar are probably horrible, but I'm so tired I don't think I'm clear enough to fix it now.

I agree 100%. My question is...does that have to be religion? We have sent rockets to the furthest extremes of our solar system, I think we can come up with a support system that doesnt have theism involved...no?

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Dan02

not sure if we'd be smarter but we'd definately be more open minded.

We'd be more open-minded if we limited people's ability to think what they want?

[Finny61]

Well here's the reason why I don't desire to just jump into some argument when its something I take very personally because it will just fuel a fire. I consider myself religious, I practice Christianity because I was brought up in it and never felt I needed to turn completely away from it but I had my times where I let go (specifically college). I go to church every Sunday nowadays, I donate money to the church and do charitable works through the church to help others. My money I trust is given to help run the church I think that's something that is misguided is that the church has endless riches, no, we give money to keep the church going and keep it active in society and help pay for missionary work in other countries where there is a dictatorship, extreme poverty or extreme violence.

Now I'm not the guy who wants to tear down doors and tell you what you've been missing. I believe in what I believe for me and not for society. Yes it goes against the ideas of my religion because there is the belief that you must be evangelical and go out tell people the good news. Well it's not me, if someone wants to talk to me about religion I'll share but I won't impose anything on anyone. You see I don't necessarily agree with everything in the Bible, I believe everyone who practices has a tug of war with some issue. In the end the Bible is written by man so it is inherently flawed BUT it is an excellent book of morality. Keep in mind folks yes religion is the belief in the greater being and that you must conform to a way of life, but what supersedes it is that religion provides hope. Life should be viewed as a gift and that it should be made of use and not 'you live and you die and then there is nothing'. If you believe in life after death you are inherently religious, if you believe you'll see your parents, your spouse, and heaven forbid your children if it happened, you inherently believe in some form of spirituality. Call a spade a spade it is religion just not organized.

The reason I say it'd be a darker world is because I think morality would take a backseat. Science and IQ doesn't make one a better person it is only tools to advancement, why do you think there is the term 'smart ass' right?

In closing I'd probably just argue that you can't judge what you've never tried. I can say that because at different times in my own life I've been on both sides of the fence of religion, and I don't chastize anyone who believes in a different religion then I and nor do I think those who don't believe are destined to hell. You believe in what you believe, and I'll believe in what I believe just be open to the world and realize that everyone has to find their own way you just hope that it's done with some sanity.

PS: To the guy who says we use it as a crutch, correct, that we use it because we are lonely, completely incorrect. Nice try sport. I left religion when I was in college being a party animal, I came back to religion once I got married and started my family.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Well here's the reason why I don't desire to just jump into some argument when its something I take very personally because it will just fuel a fire. I consider myself religious, I practice Christianity because I was brought up in it and never felt I needed to turn completely away from it but I had my times where I let go (specifically college). I go to church every Sunday nowadays, I donate money to the church and do charitable works through the church to help others. My money I trust is given to help run the church I think that's something that is misguided is that the church has richaes, we give money to keep the church going and keep it active in society and help pay for missionary work in other countries where there is a dictatorship, extreme poverty or extreme violence.

Now I'm not the guy who wants to tear down doors and tell you what you've been missing. I believe in what I believe for me and not for society. Yes it goes against the ideas of my religion because there is the belief that you must be evangelical and go out tell people the good news. Well it's not me, if someone wants to talk to me about religion I'll share but I won't impose anything on anyone. You see I don't necessarily agree with everything in the Bible, I believe everyone who practices has a tug of war with some issue. In the end the Bible is written by man so it is inherently flawed BUT it is an excellent book of morality. Keep in mind folks yes religion is the belief in the greater being and that you must conform to a way of life, but what supersedes it is that religion provides hope. Life should be viewed as a gift and that it should made of use and not 'you live and you die and then there is nothing'. If you believe in life after death you are inherently religious, if you believe you'll see your parents, your spouse, and heaven forbid your children if it happened, you inherently believe in some form of spirituality. Call a spade a spade it is religion just not organized.

The reason I say it'd be a darker world is because I think morality would take a backseat. Science and IQ doesn't make one a better person it is only tools to advancement, why do you think there is the term 'smart ass' right?

In closing I'd probably just argue that you can't judge what you've never tried. I can say that because at different times in my own life I've been on both sides of the fence of religion, and I don't chastize anyone who believes in a different religion then I and nor do I think those who don't believe are destined to hell. You believe in what you believe, and I'll believe in what I believe just be open to the world and realize that everyone has to find their own way.

PS: To the guy who says we use it as a crutch, correct, that we use it because we are lonely, completely incorrect. Nice try sport. I left religion when I was in college being a party animal, I came back to religion once I got married and started my family.

Thanks for your viewpoints. I think you share the same views as most theists in this world. Its how you explain these ideas that creates the discussions?
Ill comment on the bolded parts only:

Christianity, Islam, or any other theistic choice is taught to children at a very young age. You are correct in that "you were brought up in it". If you were born in the Middle East you could be a Muslim or Jewish. We are all born Atheist and taught what we should believe by our elders.

You donate money to the church to keep it going because otherwise it might just die a slow and painful death. The church often uses guilt and a promise of a heavenly thereafter to gain these monetary benefits. Is it not a form of dictatorship by the church when they go to a poor country and use whatever choice of religion they use to gather more flock? Do you think that the people of Africa who never hear of Christianity will go to an unpleasant place after death?

Its a difficult concept for quite a few people to understand how a person can suggest that something they follow is inherently flawed, yet provides a good moral guide? How do you explain away the parts that aren't good morals? Is it a pick and choose type of thing within your particular church? People provide hope through whatever organization they belong to. There are many secular organizations that offer hope of all kinds.

Morality is not a religious ideal. If it was, there would be no moral issues within the church. Ive met many smart asses who consider themselves very religious...that doesnt stem from the scientific mold. <Poor choice of words?>

The last bolded part is a poor argument. The FACT is; most Atheists have come from extremely religious backgrounds. I would beg to suggest that most Atheists know more about religions than those who are locked in its vices. Being a freethinker allows one to look at everything with an open mind vs a single direction.

None of the above is an attack on your choice...just an attempt at reasoning.

[photon]

Interesting post Finny61, thanks for sharing. I think a lot of Christians are more like you than the radical evangelical types.

I do have a few disagreements though

Originally Posted by Finny61

In the end the Bible is written by man so it is inherently flawed BUT it is an excellent book of morality.

This I disagree with.. while there are some portions of the Bible that do have good moral ideas (not really original ones), there are some portions that are morally bankrupt and I would be loathe to use those portions to educate my child in morality. Humanity has moved past much of the morality of the Bible.

Originally Posted by Finny61

Keep in mind folks yes religion is the belief in the greater being and that you must conform to a way of life, but what supersedes it is that religion provides hope. Life should be viewed as a gift and that it should made of use and not 'you live and you die and then there is nothing'.

Religion provides hope of what? See I find that belief in an afterlife has the opposite effect. If I think I've got an eternity to enjoy, and I've settled the question of my salvation, what drives me in this life? Why take care of myself, I'll get a new body anyway? Why spend time with my family, I've got an eternity with them.

Where if this is all there is, that's highly motivating to make the most of each day! Make sure I enjoy my family because today might be the last day I get to see them. Take care of myself, I want to be around for as long as I can. Do something that makes a difference today, I might not get another day to do that.

Originally Posted by Finny61

The reason I say it'd be a darker world is because I think morality would take a backseat. Science and IQ doesn't make one a better person it is only tools to advancement, why do you think there is the term 'smart ass' right?

Why would morality take a back seat? And in reality that notion doesn't pan out, there's no evidence to to show that being religious ends up with better morality. There's many countries that are far more secular than the U.S. for example and appear to be more moral, and definitely not "darker".

Originally Posted by Finny61

In closing I'd probably just argue that you can't judge what you've never tried.

That's a bit foolish, there's clearly things I can judge without trying. I know not to drink draino, join one of the apparently many gangs in Calgary, and avoid paying my taxes without having actually try those things.

Most people posting in this thread come by their opinions quite honestly, many have tried.

Originally Posted by Finny61

You believe in what you believe, and I'll believe in what I believe just be open to the world and realize that everyone has to find their own way you just hope that it's done with some sanity.

I think that's the sticking point for some; they would say engaging in religion for some means sacrificing the sanity part.

You obviously haven't sacrificed yours, but you admit that your views are a bit heretical. What do you think would happen if you asked your pastor for some time and preached a message similar to what you posted here, including the notion that the Bible is flawed, incorrect in places, and that non-believers don't go to hell? Would your relationships in the church change?

I used to do quite a bit of preaching in church, I know if I'd taught some of the things I thought at the time I would have been removed from the pulpit, and many of my relationships with people would have ended. That tells me something about what religion is capable of doing.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

the overall IQ of the human race would improve dramatically if all religion was abolished

No, it wouldn't, because that's not the way IQ works. Any sample always has a center of 100. If you sample our population now, it has an average IQ of 100. If you double the intelligence of the everyone on the planet and then measure the IQ again, it's still 100.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Finny61

PS: To the guy who says we use it as a crutch, correct, that we use it because we are lonely, completely incorrect. Nice try sport. I left religion when I was in college being a party animal, I came back to religion once I got married and started my family.

Just wanting to clairify my prior statement due to me being exhausted at the time of writing it. All of the examples I mentioned were in reference to some people who follow any religion, not all. In life, everybody does things their own way, so I was trying to be inclusive to the many different reasons why some people need religion.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Finny61

The reason I say it'd be a darker world is because I think morality would take a backseat. Science and IQ doesn't make one a better person it is only tools to advancement, why do you think there is the term 'smart ass' right?

I hate this argument because it pre-supposes that people are immoral without the benefit of a higher power teaching us how to behave.

I think it speaks very poorly of religious people that they essentially believe that they would behave abysmally if they suddenly discovered God was not watching.

[Flames_Gimp]

they should start up prison camps and round up all who believe in religion.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

There is a problem with your viewpoint.

Some people need to have something to hold onto to keep their sanity. It is something to hold on to to keep you from feeling alone. Some people need this.

There is a lot of other things you can hold onto, we let go of Santa when we were kids and we turned out alright, considering how for many children being told the truth is quite devastating.

I think gradual change from theism to a non theistic traditional society is the path we will go down, Sweden and Denmark are perfect examples of this. Both countries are Christian nations, have national churches, people baptise their children, have confirmations, weddings/funerals in churches... But the vast majority of them don't believe in god, they like the traditions and its a good way for people to gather and celebrate moments in life as well as remember a life.

Some people need to be followers of something that is "greater" than they are because they cannot handle the cruelties of the real world.

Some people who are in dire straights need some inspiration in order to get out of their situation.

They can certainly find other things in life not supernatural to fill that void, hundreds of millions do. Social organizations, family, friends, volunteering. That 'need' is obviously solved by non believers all over the world, so to say some people can't do without believing in fairy tales doesn't mean they can't. Obviously its going to be easier for some and more difficult for others.

In many cases, whether the person is conscious of it or not, they need a crutch to make themselves feel better about themselves, others and so the world so it makes sense to them.

Thats so horribly sad to think that, while I do agree in some cases people are like that, I have a higher opinion of humanity and the possibility of people to adapt, change and find meaning in a secular world.

People like you and I have no need for this particular crutch but to deny others this is not right either. Every man and woman needs to find the path that they feel most comfortable on, and if it is aided by religion, then so be it. Now if people could stop having pissing matches over the differences in their coping methods, then the world would be a far better place.

No Atheist wants to deny religion, look how well forced atheism worked for Russia or China. People have to change their own minds, evolve into a secular society otherwise its pointless. Atheists are working to bring us into the debate and raise awareness about a significant portion of this planet falls into, in fact they estimate us as the 4th largest 'group' behind Islam, Christianity and Hinduism (not sure on hinduism).

The problem is we need to move from what I call fundy religiosity like in parts of the US, Phillippines, Arab world, and move into a more secular society like Sweden/Denmark which still use churches and have the traditions from religion without the absolutism.

Because Religion is absolutism at its core, and when you have 2 massive religions like Islam and Christianity head to head, there is no middle ground.

I leave you with this point, probably a reason why so many more non believers are standing up, speaking out, and having this debate. It was a point made that imagine IF the USSR was a Islamic nation, and the cold war in the 50's started with two nuclear powers, one Christian and one Islamic.

Do you think we'd be around today having a debate, or do you think we'd have already nuked our world into oblivion?

Thats why this debate matters so much now, we need to move away from dogmatic and fundementalist religion sooner than later, since we are getting more and more advanced with our ways to destroy this planet.

[peter12]

I think that's an interesting point.

I personally believe that most people believe in some sort of divinity or "one-ness" to the universe. That's just the way we are hard-wired and I think it will always be that way. However, I do hope that we see a transition into something like the "Hellenism" of ancient Greece. A more philosophical, free-thinking religion which incorporates tradition and some level of spirituality, while completely rejecting dogma as the basis for human action.

[Finny61]

Well I don't know then, seriously though you either accept religion, tolerate religion, or dislike and even despise religion. And I mean that towards all religions not just mine. In the end it's agree to disagree attitudes for all of us.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Well I don't know then, seriously though you either accept religion, tolerate religion, or dislike and even despise religion. And I mean that towards all religions not just mine.

Acceptance and tolerance are good things and I don't think that we should "despise" religious people. I was raised in a healthy religious household, in the mold of evangelical Christianity. I was taught the Earth was created in 6 days etc... It didn't hurt me one bit. I just completed an honours thesis that looked at what the impact that evolutionary biological models of human nature would do to liberal policy frameworks.

I was always taught to keep an open mind. More importantly, I was taught the "good stuff" of Christianity. Love others, be kind and charitable. All that stuff has kept me in very good stead in my life and will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

There are bad religious people out there. No way around it. There is certainly a very ugly side to the evangelical/traditional wings of Christianity, Islam etc... As democrats, religious or not, we should oppose those who wish to impose fear and unjust restrictions absolutely upon an entire society.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Well I don't know then, seriously though you either accept religion, tolerate religion, or dislike and even despise religion. And I mean that towards all religions not just mine. In the end it's agree to disagree attitudes for all of us.

I guess people can agree to disagree, but usually that happens after a bit of interaction. Unfortunate that you don't want to engage in a discussion about it though, personally I find I learn the most about what I think and why I think it when I talk to others about what they think.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by peter12

Acceptance and tolerance are good things and I don't think that we should "despise" religious people. I was raised in a healthy religious household, in the mold of evangelical Christianity. I was taught the Earth was created in 6 days etc... It didn't hurt me one bit. I just completed an honours thesis that looked at what the impact that evolutionary biological models of human nature would do to liberal policy frameworks.

I was always taught to keep an open mind. More importantly, I was taught the "good stuff" of Christianity. Love others, be kind and charitable. All that stuff has kept me in very good stead in my life and will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

There are bad religious people out there. No way around it. There is certainly a very ugly side to the evangelical/traditional wings of Christianity, Islam etc... As democrats, religious or not, we should oppose those who wish to impose fear and unjust restrictions absolutely upon an entire society.

Are you sure that the above is the "good stuff" of Christianity? My kids love me without question and would give the shirts off their back to help others...yet they aren't Christian. Many other atheist children are the same. So the question begs asking...where do the Heathen children get their "good stuff"?
When my kids grow up can they say "More importantly, I was taught the "good stuff" of Atheism. Love others, be kind and charitable?"
Further to the above...whatabout the Christian children who didnt get the above message? Did their parents teach them poorly or by different Christian standards?