have you ever had a dui, or been close?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dion

How do you drive if you don't have a license?

Put the key in the ignition, start the car, put foot on the gas...

Plenty of people drive without their licenses. People who are repeatedly drinking and driving really don't seem to have much of a concern for the law anyways so who cares about a little piece of plastic.

I disagree. People who drink and get behind the wheel know exactly what they are doing. They are taking a calculated gamble on the fact that they think they are sober enough to drive and won't be a danger to themselves and others.

So if they are willing to take that gamble why not take the gamble that they won't lose their license?

Seems to me that it is less likely that they lose their license and the result is a lot less damaging. If killing someone doesn't deter them losing their license wouldn't even be a thought.

You think that a drunk who is starting his car is really going to think "Hey I could kill someone if I drive, oh well I'll take the chance, oh wait I might lose my license for life, better not"?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by moon

Put the key in the ignition, start the car, put foot on the gas...

Plenty of people drive without their licenses. People who are repeatedly drinking and driving really don't seem to have much of a concern for the law anyways so who cares about a little piece of plastic.

haha, this reminds me of that simpsons episode where Homer loses his liscense and Lisa says, "dad you can't drive, you don't have your liscense". Then Homer says "Well, I'm going try anyways"....*turns key and starts car*..."It worked! It's a miracle!!".

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Dion

How do you drive if you don't have a license?

You get into a vehicle, turn the key and put it into gear.

I know of people who had multiple suspensions upon suspensions, and not having a license doesn't stop them from driving. That's why I don't think stiffer penalties will do anything.

In my mind there are two types of drunk drivers; those that always drive drunk, and those that drive drunk due to some lack of planning. The ones who always drive drunk; they are also the ones who show signs of being an alcoholic. They can't have one social drink- they must get obliterated every time they go out.

I know my suggestions I have made will not impact those who are habitual drunk drivers. I'm thinking of getting the guy who is an occasional drunk driver off the road. The bottom line is we want drunk drivers off the road, and judging by the number of people in this thread who have admitted to drunk driving, I would say there are a lot more people who do it than we think.

Let's give some options to those guys. I'm not talking about coddling them, but options that will have a positive impact on everybody. Who here has never been frustrated trying to get a cab- especially during a busy time of year? Who here wouldn't like to have the option of being able to go out with your buddies, and know that there is a C-train waiting for you after all is said and done? Or be able to call a car service without it costing you more than your entire evening did?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ken0042

You get into a vehicle, turn the key and put it into gear.

I know of people who had multiple suspensions upon suspensions, and not having a license doesn't stop them from driving. That's why I don't think stiffer penalties will do anything.

Put em in jail for 5 or 10 years and its not a problem. What are we going to do with these people that flout the law like that. I highly doubt counseling or AA is going to make a difference, these people are already unrepentant and don't deserve any kind of mercy.

Originally Posted by ken0042

In my mind there are two types of drunk drivers; those that always drive drunk, and those that drive drunk due to some lack of planning. The ones who always drive drunk; they are also the ones who show signs of being an alcoholic. They can't have one social drink- they must get obliterated every time they go out.

To me frankly there is no difference between the two, you have a choice when you drink and then get in the car and turn the key. To me there's no difference in circumstances. Equal punishment for equal crime.

Originally Posted by ken0042

I know my suggestions I have made will not impact those who are habitual drunk drivers. I'm thinking of getting the guy who is an occasional drunk driver off the road. The bottom line is we want drunk drivers off the road, and judging by the number of people in this thread who have admitted to drunk driving, I would say there are a lot more people who do it than we think.

A occasional drunk driver by the sounds of it, is a person that has done it more then once, that to me is a habit. I make no difference between the habitual and the occasional, and I think harsh penalties are warranted for people that do it even once. This is a crime of choice, just because your blitzed doesn't mean that it should be an excuse for driving.

Originally Posted by ken0042

Let's give some options to those guys. I'm not talking about coddling them, but options that will have a positive impact on everybody. Who here has never been frustrated trying to get a cab- especially during a busy time of year? Who here wouldn't like to have the option of being able to go out with your buddies, and know that there is a C-train waiting for you after all is said and done? Or be able to call a car service without it costing you more than your entire evening did?

Sure that would be great, but to me its not an excuse. If your with a group, then one of them is a designated driver. If you have friends I'm sure they won't mind saving your life or others by picking you up. If you have family in the city its the same thing. Just because a cab or a train isn't available it isn't ok to put others and your own life in jeopardy. Thats like me saying, I'm broke so its ok for me to do a home invasion.

There is no excuse for drunk driving, there's no reason to make that choice. For crimes of choice we need to be harsh on these people. I would even be willing to shorten the sentence if they're given community service in a morgue or a emergency room, and they're forced to meet with the victims family and take the beating that they're so deserving.

Sorry if it seems like I'm exploding on you Ken, its not you, its drinking and driving and some situations that have effected me in the past.

[ken0042]

No problem, CC. I know this is an issue that many people are quite passionate about.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There is no excuse for drunk driving, there's no reason to make that choice.

I agree that nothing anybody can say can excuse drunk driving, but what I am saying is there are excuses available. Not that any of those excuses even come close to justifying the act- just saying they exist.

My point is- let's put an end to some of those excuses. The reason that choice gets made is that sometimes a person who may have their judgement impaired is the one making the decision.

The reason I shared the circumstances of my last "getting behind the wheel when I shouldn't have" was to illustrate the mechanisms in place that caused that situation. On a personal note, I now know not to ever put myself into a situation where I would need to get home in my own car. But what is to stop the next guy like me getting into that situation and having to drive home drunk?

We've already put the message out there- drinking and driving is not excusable. Now let's put some teeth into that message and make sure there are real options. Perhaps the cost of adding transit may not be effective- but why not allow more taxis on the road?

You are 100% right that people shouldn't drink and drive. But they do. So rather than continue a one sided approach of "getting the message out", I'm suggesting that we also give options to enable people to make better choices.

[Mr.Coffee]

Why not pass legislation that makes it mandatory to blow into a device to start your car? Make the engine ignite if you don't blow over.

How much money is that device for car manufacturers? If it's expensive, like fotze said, give some money to car manufacturers to subsidize.

It would be mandatory for every vehicle on the streets.

[Scrambler]

I got pulled over last year and got a 24 hour suspension, a large ticket ($354) and had to pay to get my car out of the impound the next day. I big learning lesson that I have learned from. I never take drinking and getting home safe for granted anymore.

I wondered for awhile why I never got charged, I failed the roadside test and probably could/should have been arrested. I suppose in the end it'easier to get 30 people off the road right away then it is to go through all the loops of charging and convicting someone. Since I didn't have a record and wasn't completely wasted I think they felt this was the best way to teach me a lesson.

[enthused]

The most I will ever have is one or two beers, over an entire evening, if I plan on driving home. Although even then, I try not to drive home just because it really isn't worth it. Plus I usually like to have more than one or two beers!

Most of the time my boyfriend and I ride our bikes to and from the bar or a party. That way we neither of us have to worry about driving, yet we can still go places that are further away than just "walking distance". Luckily I also manage to get a lot of taxi chits from work, so sometimes I'll just expense a cab ride if necessary. But I am definitely more than willing to pay for a cab (if I can ever get one), if it means getting home safely. I agree with those who say transit should run 24 hours. Having transit as an option would certainly keep a few more drunk drivers off the roads.

I remember when I was in high school I used to throw a lot of parties, and I was always so strict about making sure people didn't drive home. Even when I was wasted myself I'd make sure no one was leaving in a car. Anyways one guy who came to one of the parties was sooo drunk, like he'd thrown up everywhere and was a total mess, and at the end of the night he was going to drive home. I followed him to his car and told him he shouldn't drive, and that he could just crash at my house. He wouldn't listen, and when I tried to grab his keys he punched me in the face. Yeah... punching a girl in the face is really cool! Anyways, I ended up with his keys and since he couldn't drive he ended up coming inside and sleeping on the floor.

I was happy to get a black eye if it meant that no one was going to die that night.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by moon

Put the key in the ignition, start the car, put foot on the gas...

Plenty of people drive without their licenses. People who are repeatedly drinking and driving really don't seem to have much of a concern for the law anyways so who cares about a little piece of plastic.

Then we need to up the penalties for these sorry arses and put them in prison. Maybe not being able to support their family will knock some sense into them.

If they continue when they get out, throw em back in for a longer period of time. Heck, we could institute a 3 strike law like they have in California. Do it 3 times you get life in prison.

So if they are willing to take that gamble why not take the gamble that they won't lose their license?

Seems to me that it is less likely that they lose their license and the result is a lot less damaging. If killing someone doesn't deter them losing their license wouldn't even be a thought.

You think that a drunk who is starting his car is really going to think "Hey I could kill someone if I drive, oh well I'll take the chance, oh wait I might lose my license for life, better not"?

Like i said previously, drunks that get behind the wheel don't think about about the what ifs - they think they are sober enough to drive.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dion

Then we need to up the penalties for these sorry arses and put them in prison. Maybe not being able to support their family will knock some sense into them.

If they continue when they get out, throw em back in for a longer period of time. Heck, we could institute a 3 strike law like they have in California. Do it 3 times you get life in prison.

I have no problem with upping the punishment, especially for repeat offenders. (I am more willing to go easy on first time offenders, but repeat DUI's should be dealt with very harshly.)

All I am saying is that harsher punishments aren't going to do much to deter people from driving drunk in the first place. As you say below (which I have been agreeing with 100%) is that drunks don't think about what ifs, so if the punishment is lose of license forever the drunk (for the most part) won't care, he will still drive.

Like i said previously, drunks that get behind the wheel don't think about about the what ifs - they think they are sober enough to drive.

Punishment is great for after the fact and making people "pay" for what they have done, but it is not a great measure to prevent people from driving drunk in the first place. Until people actually feel like these punishments will affect them, it won't matter.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Let's give some options to those guys. I'm not talking about coddling them, but options that will have a positive impact on everybody. Who here has never been frustrated trying to get a cab- especially during a busy time of year? Who here wouldn't like to have the option of being able to go out with your buddies, and know that there is a C-train waiting for you after all is said and done? Or be able to call a car service without it costing you more than your entire evening did?

Back in my teens and early 20's a good buddy and i alternated as designated drivers each weekend. We planned ahead and covered our bases to prevent someone from drinking and driving. With staff Christmas parties i always booked a nearby hotel room for the night.

There's no reason why other people couldn't plan ahead.

[Phanuthier]

I think there's a few problems here, Dion.

1. There is a difference between punishment and prevention. The assumption being made with the proposal is punishment is prevention, and as ken pointed out, thats not the case. Very little to no correlation, unfortunately. The plan is not a forward thinking plan; rather, it looks like a reactionary and emotional plan. If more severe punishment does not mitigate the issue (and I don't think it does) then its a useless plan.

I can think of a few ideas to actively remove the issue, but it will be costly and near impossible to implement. For instance, driver licenses or ID must be recorded (ala new clubs that take a picture of your ID) before you order a drink, to record who was where... yes, Big Brother, yes difficult to implement. Next, cameras in parking areas to record won is driving. I'm pretty sure you could get someone like Nvidia to whip up some software to record which photos in ID correlate to who was entering the car. Yes, I see alot of holes, but its a idea to start on.

Or ... better public transit, which I think works really well.

2. We have a broken legal system in North America, and I can see there being so many challenges. You can bet if we drastically change the fines in any way, there's going to be alot of push back and alot of these criminal convictions challenged. What do you do when you get a ticket? Challenge it in the coarts and it usually gets discounted or just plain thrown out; thats been suggested on CP many times. They probably do something similar with a DUI. If you want to throw people in jail with long sentences, to convict them is going to cost alot of money. Remember this isn't someone else's money, this is your money - tax payers money. This money has to come from somewhere. Apperently in North America, there are larger fines for trying to save someone's life then taking someone's life. Sort of embarrassing.

3. ty social structure of driving. Bad drivers, irresponsible drivers, reckless drivers. If we extend the consequences to similar issues/threats, then I see no reason why we shouldn't have the same (crazy) consequences to those driving while talking on their cell phone or texting. I'll bet cellphones / texting sit pretty high on the accidents and death causes, but it doesn't get the same press as DD. (For the record, I'm not excusing DD here. Just showing the many issues we have with the whole social structure we have of driving.) I think whatever consequences and prevention we have for DD, we should have for cellphones and driving. Way too many jackasses here that that are preoccupied on their phones while driving. And we haven't even talked about the just plain bad drivers in Calgary, like the grandpa who decided to blow 3 straight stop signs and I almost smoked him on the first one today. Nor have we talked about the self-rightous self-governing drivers who probably cause more then a few accident, see Left Hand Lane thread (aka 4x4 and REDVANs thread).

All in all ... a very convoluted problem we have in Canada and North America.

[stuck_in_chuk]

I've recently had 2 friends get charged with DUIs. The one guy - first time offender - got $1000 fine and 3 months suspension, and will have to pay to install a governor on his car. He got off easy because he was scheduled to go in for treatment for alcoholism a few days later. I'm not sure about the other friend, and what he got.

I've never been close to getting a DUI. My formative years were in a small town, where all the bars were in close walking distance to my house (and cabs were readily available and dirt cheap). In university, I didn't have a car, so I made sure I left the bar early enough for a bus or was close enough to walk home (or made sure I had a place to crash). Since then, I have always made sure to find a neighbourhood bar to frequent when I feel like going out for a beer. I never drive if there is the chance that I could be drinking, and never drink if I have to drive home.

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned about driving home a few blocks from the bar after getting hammered. My question - why would you drive there in the first place?

In my work, I see too many people who thought they were OK to drive home about to become organ donors.

[driveway]

Considering the vehemence demonstrated towards people who drive while intoxicated, do you all favour similarly harsh punishments for people who talk on the phone while driving?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

Considering the vehemence demonstrated towards people who drive while intoxicated, do you all favour similarly harsh punishments for people who talk on the phone while driving?

Yup, especially if they cause an accident.

I turn off my phone when I'm driving. If its important enough, they'll leave a message.

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by driveway

Considering the vehemence demonstrated towards people who drive while intoxicated, do you all favour similarly harsh punishments for people who talk on the phone while driving?

Yes--maybe not that harsh, but a good impoundment would be hot.

Considering we almost were run off Deerfoot on Wednesday by some idiot in his Escalade who was texting on his cell--at first we thought he was drunk...playing lane Pong...but no he was just texting at 110 kph

And I don't phone and drive, so there
I drove home drunk once. Once I sobered up I couldn't beleive I had done it--felt guilty for weeks. Never again.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

Yes--maybe not that harsh, but a good impoundment would be hot.

Considering we almost were run off Deerfoot on Wednesday by some idiot in his Escalade who was texting on his cell--at first we thought he was drunk...playing lane Pong...but no he was just texting at 110 kph

And I don't phone and drive, so there
I drove home drunk once. Once I sobered up I couldn't beleive I had done it--felt guilty for weeks. Never again.

Thanks for that, Paris Hilton.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jayems

I do like me the sauce, but I'll never have more than 2 or 3 if i'm driving, (depending on the time it takes to have those, but usually 2 is the max) which is why I never drink that much at our games. Unless it's Halloween and we're in Indus and have a DD.

I keep it to 3 or 4 in an evening (ie: 4 hours or more) if I'm driving home, or 1 or 2 if it's in a short period of time (ie: in the parking lot after a hockey game).

[ikaris]

The fact that there is a severe disconnect regarding the consistency of enforcement (eg. sometimes getting off only with a 24 hour versus getting a full DUI charge when you're just over the limit) suggests that there is a fundamental lack of justice issue here.

Should the police really have this sort of discretion? This is one of the reasons I find it so difficult to trust police officers because you really don't know how they're going to treat you. If you're stupid enough to get into this situation, make sure you lawyer up.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by driveway

Considering the vehemence demonstrated towards people who drive while intoxicated, do you all favour similarly harsh punishments for people who talk on the phone while driving?

No. If the punishment is so severe that it digs a hole that the criminal can't see a way out of you are doing more harm and good. Take away someones ability to work or even seek work and you will beget more criminal behaviour.

It is good that society in general has determined drunk driving to be a shameful act. Peer pressure will do a lot more to prevent drunk driving than anything else. I think the law is pretty fair where it stands. They might be able to do more for repeat offenders. Perhaps they should be prohibited them from drinking for life rather than driving. If they can't stop drinking than jail them until there is some indication of a change in self control.

Those who use cell phones while they drive could be banned from possessing or using a cell phone for 1 full year.

One think we have to remember is that statistically speaking if you drive drunk tonight or chose to use your cell phone while you drive home tonight you are probably not going to get into an accident. You are also probably not going to be stopped and checked either. For those who have made either a habit of one or the other sighting some obscure accident statistic isn't likely to have a great effect. The best way to change such behaviour is through society taking a strong moral stance against it. If you know some behaviour of yours makes you everybody's whipping boy you change that behaviour fast. Nobody likes being dumped on.