Vatican endorses Evolution...disses Creationism

[Displaced Flames fan]

Uh, I never thought anyone was attacking me.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006...st-w.html#more

44%, the Gallup numbers, was what he used in his text and what I took issue with. Incredulity is all I have to offer you, I'm afraid.

But I don't for a second believe that polling is infallable.

Well that link about the Science article there's nothing specific about 10,000 years so you can't really use that to support any position about the public's opinion of a 10,000 year old either, for or against.

Yet even in that poll the question "Human beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals." is a dead heat and "Human beings were created by God as whole persons and did not evolve from earlier forms of life." leads almost 2 to 1, which is still a very anti-scientific stance. I don't see much difference between 60% of people denying common ancestry and 44% of people believing in a 6000 year old earth.

I don't see how a poll can be fallible or infallible, it's simply answers to a question. You can't deny how people answered the question.

I would say thought that how meaningful the results of a poll are is questionable.. even with the few polls that have been shown it's easy to see how easily the poll results are swayed. You can ask the exact same question regarding evolution and once you throw "God" into the question the results change significantly.. which tells me that people simply don't really know what they believe, they just parrot back what the media tells them to think

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by stuck_in_chuk

It's not only Sarah Palin - potential Republican candidate Mike Huckabee is a creationist as well. Presumably Mitt Romney as well, but as a Mormon his beliefs would be quite different than those of the average YEC.

Any person who believes in God is a creationist. That's most people. That doesn't mean they believe the earth is less than 10K years old. I didn't like the baptist minister portion of Huckabee's resume, but I don't think he ever said the earth is brand spankin' new. I grew up Mormon and I never heard about the earth being brand new either.

BTW...Obama is also a creationist...as is Joe Biden.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Well that link about the Science article there's nothing specific about 10,000 years so you can't really use that to support any position about the public's opinion of a 10,000 year old either, for or against.

Yet even in that poll the question "Human beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals." is a dead heat and "Human beings were created by God as whole persons and did not evolve from earlier forms of life." leads almost 2 to 1, which is still a very anti-scientific stance. I don't see much difference between 60% of people denying common ancestry and 44% of people believing in a 6000 year old earth.

I don't see how a poll can be fallible or infallible, it's simply answers to a question. You can't deny how people answered the question.

I would say thought that how meaningful the results of a poll are is questionable.. even with the few polls that have been shown it's easy to see how easily the poll results are swayed. You can ask the exact same question regarding evolution and once you throw "God" into the question the results change significantly.. which tells me that people simply don't really know what they believe, they just parrot back what the media tells them to think

Most people haven't seen or can't understand the scientific data supporting common ancestry. Almost everyone has seen and can understand the far more overwhelming evidence suggesting that earth is much, much older than 6000 years. That's the difference.

If I said I don't think humans evolved from ###### would you automatically assume I was a bible thumper? You shouldn't. (that's not my belief btw) I think you're making a giant leap.

Polling can be designed to obtain certain answers. Easily. That's why I don't trust it.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Uh, I never thought anyone was attacking me.

Sorry about that but you are sounding pretty defensive in your posts.

[Hack&Lube]

Personally, I don't see why ID is irrelevant to discussing whether or not a large part of the population believes the earth is 6000 years old or not. ID is one of the biggest topics when it comes to evolution and the news. For many people who believe in creationism and take a literalist view of the bible, 6000 years is a common theme and like photon said, it's been mentioned in interviews and news clips with American political candidates in town hall meetings, journalist's questions, debates, etc. It's one of the common questions put to people to determine whether or not they take an absolutely literal perspective toward the Bible or if they believe it should be an inspired, interpretive text.

http://www.christianpost.com/article...-literally.htm

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/One...ally-True.aspx

If you take the Bible absolutely literally, and you truely follow the genelogies presented in it, you do reach the 6000 years number. Maybe, we're down to 33.333% now? I don't know what you heard growing up as a mormon, but I certainly heard about 6000 years in Church.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Personally, I don't see why ID is irrelevant to discussing whether or not a large part of the population believes the earth is 6000 years old or not.

Simply because all ID/creationists don't believe the earth is 6000 years old or interpret the bible literally.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Simply because all ID/creationists don't believe the earth is 6000 years old or interpret the bible literally.

ID/Creationists are a broader group that encompass young earth creationists and many of those who believe the bible should be taken as the literal inerrant word of God. That's a very large portion of the population. As long as they are part of the group, it's not irrelevant to the discussion. You said that if you believe in God, you are a creationist. Well, chances are that if you take the bible absolutely literally, you would also favor ID/creationism.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

ID/Creationists are a broader group that encompass young earth creationists and many of those who believe the bible should be taken as the literal inerrant word of God. That's a very large portion of the population. As long as they are part of the group, it's not irrelevant to the discussion.

If it were the other way around, then I would agree.

YEC is a small portion of the larger group.

If we were talking about Flames fans and specifically Flames fans in the US, it would be irrelevant to bring up Calgarian Flames fans for the purpose of that discussion.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

If it were the other way around, then I would agree.

YEC is a small portion of the larger group.

For the past few posts I've been talking about those who take the Bible literally. For those, the 7 days that God created the earth are exactly 7 days. The genelogies presented, the years described, the passage of time as given through the Torah to the New Testament add up to roughly 4000 years. Talk of the 6000 year number is often presented in sermons. I have been personally exposed to them in my lifetime. I've even turned on the TV in the middle of the night to find some televangelist talking about it. If almost a 3rd of Americans believe that the Bible is the literal inerrant word of God, that is not at all a SMALLER portion of the group. YEC is simply a movement designed to articulate the beliefs of those who fervently believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, especially in regard to science.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

For the past few posts I've been talking about those who take the Bible literally. For those, the 7 days that God created the earth are exactly 7 days. The genelogies presented, the years described, the passage of time as given through the Torah to the New Testament add up to roughly 4000 years. Talk of the 6000 year number is often presented in sermons. I have been personally exposed to them in my lifetime. I've even turned on the TV in the middle of the night to find some televangelist talking about it. If almost a 3rd of Americans believe that the Bible is the literal inerrant word of God, that is not at all a SMALLER portion of the group. YEC is simply a movement designed to articulate the beliefs of those who fervently believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, especially in regard to science.

Don't believe that either.

Incredulity again, I know.

Where have you seen that 1/3 of Americans believe in a complete and full literal translation of the bible?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Don't believe that either.

Incredulity again, I know.

Where have you seen that 1/3 of Americans believe in a complete and full literal translation of the bible?

Use your mouse and scroll about 4-5 posts up in this thread.
Post #87
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...5&postcount=87

You don't have to take my word at it, you can be incredulous about that post existing too if you don't care to look.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Use your mouse and scroll about 4-5 posts up in this thread.
Post #87
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...5&postcount=87

The mouse only works if the link actually goes to a live web page.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

The mouse only works if the link actually goes to a live web page.

haha, no harm. I'm just throwing more "CP's Believe it or Not!" gallup polls (and Christian websites that report them) in the mix. The stupid CP thing always compresses links though.

http://www.christianpost.com/article...-literally.htm

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/One...ally-True.aspx
One-Third of Americans Believe the Bible is Literally True

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Any person who believes in God is a creationist.

Well yes if you use a very broad definition of a word then you'll capture pretty much everyone except atheists or agnostics. Not very useful for this discussion.

In this context creationist (to me at least) either refers to someone who believes that the earth is 6000 years old, or someone who believes that God directly created life by poofing man and animals into existence as they are. Basically rejecting common descent.

[Displaced Flames fan]

What kind of church did you grow up in Hack?

As a Mormon kid, I was never taught about a young earth. There was some other ridiculous stuff to be sure, but not that.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Well yes if you use a very broad definition of a word then you'll capture pretty much everyone except atheists or agnostics. Not very useful for this discussion.

In this context creationist (to me at least) either refers to someone who believes that the earth is 6000 years old, or someone who believes that God directly created life by poofing man and animals into existence as they are. Basically rejecting common descent.

Well no wonder the numbers are so skewed.

I don't think that is a widely accepted definition of creationism.....meaning I think the common folk think a belief in God = a belief in creationism.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Nm

[photon]

25% believe it "somewhat likely" Jesus will return in 2007
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/208/story_20828_1.html

45% believe that the Bible is "absolutely accurate and everything in it can be taken literally.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/inerran4.htm

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What kind of church did you grow up in Hack?

As a Mormon kid, I was never taught about a young earth. There was some other ridiculous stuff to be sure, but not that.

Protestant. They didn't teach it as infallible and literal doctrine or anything. Far from the truth but it obviously comes up when you are discussing it or Sunday School teachers are trying to tell precoscious little brats about Genesis so you are definetely exposed to it. It was printed in some bibles. I remember my sunday school teacher telling me that you could believe that the earth was made in 7 days, that the earth is 6000 years old, or that you could interpret it in other ways. They could be 7 or 6000 of "God's years" (1 God day could be a few million years from our perspective) or perhaps you can also consider the Hebrew concept of using hyperbole or figures of speech in describing the passage of time. For example, many historians and theologians argue that the expression of the number 40 (as in "40 days and 40 nights" or "40 years in the desert") was just an ancient Hebrew way of saying: "a friggin' long time!!!"