$2.00/L by...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

You didn't directly answer anything I have said. Besides I didn't say we should increse taxes, just that we shouldn't reduce it.

You said if you have to tax things, taxing consumer purchases of gasoline is as good a place as any. Infering taxes are the way to curb consumption. Logicaly the Harper govt would have done this - thus my question as to why he hasn't. Not everyone has decreased their use of gasoline - especially those making a good income. Just look at the numbers of SUV and pickups being driven in the city of Calgary. Taxes like these hurt the low and middle income people.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Azure

Weird. Both Jammies and IFF argued extensively against me when I said that more oil would help stabilize the market.

We're on the same page here. My point about building more refineries...well, because they SHOULD build more refineries. For the future.

hmm, well of course more crude oil would stabilze the market. I bet we will see TI go down tomorrow because the middle east is concerned that demand is deteriorating due to price.

As for refineries, who is 'they' if they made money people would build them. The solution isn't and will never be more refineries. It is the reduction of demand.

Originally Posted by Azure

US is already getting 20% of its power from nuclear, France is getting 80%. Neither have been 'attacked.'

I know, but that tells us nothing of the future, and as dependance to nukes grow so does the threat.

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes, they still ARE driving. Maybe not as much, but they're driving. And not even $9.00 gas is driving them to develop 'alternative sources.' They just learn to live with it.

But using way less, to be honest I don't know what the point of noting the cost of fuel in france means. As non commercial consumers we all have the power to decide to increase or decrease or overall demand of gasoline. If people live in the burbs with 2 big cars or SUV's, honestly they dug their own grave.

Originally Posted by Azure

Which is why I have a problem with just taxing gas. You'll hurt the people who are already hurting, and the rest won't care.

no, you shape proper behavior. Canadians and especially Calgarians have always believed that burning tons and tons of fuel is a birthright. We have a demand problem, not a tax problem.

[Azure]

People who have two-car garages and drive SUVs probably don't care about the price of gas. You're not going to CHANGE them. What you WILL do is hurt the lower-class/middle income people.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Dion

You said if you have to tax things, taxing consumer purchases of gasoline is as good a place as any. Infering taxes are the way to curb consumption. Logicaly the Harper govt would have done this - thus my question as to why he hasn't. Not everyone has decreased their use of gasoline - especially those making a good income. Just look at the numbers of SUV and pickups being driven in the city of Calgary. Taxes like these hurt the low and middle income people.

the country didn't start with harper, and have no idea why policy changes in this administration is so important to you. we tax gas now, I think that's a good thing. That's it.

and ask car dealerships how those SUV sales are going right about now.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Azure

People who have two-car garages and drive SUVs probably don't care about the price of gas. You're not going to CHANGE them. What you WILL do is hurt the lower-class/middle income people.

I think your assumptions are absolutely wrong.

I bet there are tons of people with 2 car garages, that drive SUV that care about the price of gas, and they WILL change in the future.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Azure

People who have two-car garages and drive SUVs probably don't care about the price of gas. You're not going to CHANGE them. What you WILL do is hurt the lower-class/middle income people.

I beg to differ with this statement. Practicaly every SUV owner I know is complaining about the price of gas. In fact, most are driving around with for sale signs on them. Good luck selling them now though.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think your assumptions are absolutely wrong.

I bet there are tons of people with 2 car garages, that drive SUV that care about the price of gas, and they WILL change in the future.

Yeah, some I suppose will.

Still think that taxing gas hurts the lower income families more than it FORCES SUV drives to change their lifestyle. You have to give people incentive to change, not force them through taxes.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

the country didn't start with harper, and have no idea why policy changes in this administration is so important to you. we tax gas now, I think that's a good thing. That's it.

and ask car dealerships how those SUV sales are going right about now.

Judging by the amount of SUV's and pickups on the road i'd say sales are good. Remember there's a lot of money in Calgary and those profiting from the Alberta advantage don't seem to be fased by the high gas prices. The Ford dealership here in High River has mostly pickups on it's lot.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah, some I suppose will.

Still think that taxing gas hurts the lower income families more than it FORCES SUV drives to change their lifestyle. You have to give people incentive to change, not force them through taxes.

I think both sticks and carrots work quite well.

No doubt that there are folks who need to change how they transport themselves and frankly overall how they live. It sucks, but we don't have easy to access crude anymore. Whatcha gonna do?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Dion

Judging by the amount of SUV's and pickups on the road i'd say sales are good. Remember there's a lot of money in Calgary and those profiting from the Alberta advantage don't seem to be fased by the high gas prices. The Ford dealership here in High River has mostly pickups on it's lot.

Here's an update for you. I have a friend to runs a dealership. SUV sales are VERY VERY bad. I'm aware that there is alot of money in Calgary, but simply put, purchasing decision making processes are changing.

And trucks in High river is different, many people out there buy trucks cause they need trucks. Many people in Cgy buy SUV's for convenience or vanity.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Here's an update for you. I have a friend to runs a dealership. SUV sales are VERY VERY bad. I'm aware that there is alot of money in Calgary, but simply put, purchasing decision making processes are changing.

And trucks in High river is different, many people out there buy trucks cause they need trucks. Many people in Cgy buy SUV's for convenience or vanity.

The vast majority of people living in High River commute and work in Calgary. Our population has increased dramaticly over the years due to cheaper housing prices. Recently our town council has begun exploring the idea of a commuter train to get workers to and from Calgary

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Dion

The vast majority of people living in High River commute and work in Calgary. Our population has increased dramaticly over the years due to cheaper housing prices. Recently our town council has begun exploring the idea of a commuter train to get workers to and from Calgary

sounds like a good idea.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

sounds like a good idea.

It's something that is long overdue. Many workers here are hurting from the high gas prices. Many would move back if housing wasn't so expensive.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think both sticks and carrots work quite well.

I don't.

Why hurt the lower class income people when you don't have too?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Azure

Weird. Both Jammies and IFF argued extensively against me when I said that more oil would help stabilize the market.

No, we argued against opening up currently unexploited oil sources in the American offshore shelves and Alaskan national wildlife reserve because it wouldn't be enough oil to stabilize the market, nor would it be delivered in a time frame that would help stabilize the market. Not the same thing - at all.

[if.away]

Watch the movie: "Who killed the electric car" after you fill up your tank.

If that doesn't make your blood boil then I don't know what will.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by if.away

Watch the movie: "Who killed the electric car" after you fill up your tank.

Consumers duh.

Or wait you were about to get into a conspiracy theory about how oil companies killed a car, which, didn't even have the range to get from Calgary to Red Deer, and if not heavily subsidized would have been out of the price range of most consumers anyways. Oh and it was only a 2 seater.

It died because there wasn't a large enough market for it and suprise suprise GM isn't a charity and is trying to turn a profit.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by if.away

Watch the movie: "Who killed the electric car" after you fill up your tank.

If that doesn't make your blood boil then I don't know what will.

Hippie alert...

Sigh at electric cars.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

no, you shape proper behavior. Canadians and especially Calgarians have always believed that burning tons and tons of fuel is a birthright. We have a demand problem, not a tax problem.

Governments forcing people to change never really goes over well and always leads to whining, complaining and bickering. What they need to focus on is making it so that people want to make the change on their own, because the benefits of altering their ways are too good to continue ignoring it. If public transit systems were efficient and reliable and still affordable, if there were fantastic bike paths to help cut route times down, if the property taxes for people who lived close to the down town core were considerably less than way out in the burbs people would want to change their ways. What they need to do is focus on the behavior they want from people and make it so that those who act that way are rewarded for it. Lets face it Jealously is a human trait and if people see this guy getting all these benefits that they aren't, they'll start thinking...what do I need to do to get these benefits. Whereas if the majority is punished for their ways...they'll all just keep complaining to each other about how much they hate the government and continue to avoid changing.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Have you been to Europe? I don't think you'd find too many middle class homes with 2-3 cars sitting in the garage. They drive less.

My middle class relatives back in the old country have multiple cars. Fairly common, although they are not gas guzzlers. Europe also has a very good transit/train infrastructure setup, and distances are a lot shorter. When you drive, you drive less. Heck, I was able to easily bicycle across town when I was growing up. With a train pass, I could go anywhere.

As mentioned earlier, North America has the rather unique problem of urban sprawl, and large cities dotted across the continent with not much in between. The eastern seaboard perhaps not as much, but if you live out west, the infrastructure for non-car owners is wholly inadequate.

That being said, the USA (and Canada somewhat) is in for a reality check. The days of the Hummer and wasting fuel are nearing their end.