First Ever MMA mainstream TV ratings score higher than NHL Finals?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Alot of the usual myths being thrown about MMA, and some of the usual questions. I'll try to cover most of what was thrown around in this thread, but bare with me since I tend to have a sporadic way of getting my point across.

Start off with the What is MMA/Ultimate Fighting question. It's pretty simple, Ultimate Fighting is the brand. All Ultimate Fighting is MMA, but not all MMA is Ultimate Fighting. Similar to the way all NHL players are hockey players, but not all hockey players are NHL players. The sport name is Mixed Martial Arts. A term used because of the variety of disciplines that can be used in the sport. Ultimate Fighting is a term loosely thrown around for the big promotion on the block, Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC).

No one fighter is limited to one fighting style. An athlete can train in a variety or arts to perfect there fighting style. The ones that do well usually combine wrestling, for controlling where the fight takes place, jiu jitsu, for submissions, and a plethora of stand up skills for striking. Muay Thai, Kick boxing, american boxing, and even some guys have transfered a modified version of karate recently with some success.

Alot of people don't understand the ground game, and yes if you have no idea what it's about then you might then it is two guys hugging. I'm different though, when I see who people on the ground trying to choke each other, lock up a leg or arm, or punch each other I see nothing homoerotic about it. Some do, that's fine, that's your own issue to deal with. The ground work can be at times a thing of beauty. Watching a high level BJJ practitioner is a thing of beauty, seeing him transition from a guys back to grab an arm and lock it up is something that can make me jump to the edge or right out of my seat. It is amazing to watch. It can be a war of attrition down there some times, one guy trying to lock in a choke, the other flipping out and trying to avoid it. That's me, I love it. Though if you have any lingering homosexual thoughts then maybe it isn't for you, they don't call the mounted triangle the "Brazilian teabag" for nothing!!

Yes, there is flat out brawling aspects to the sport, no doubt about it, but that is also what makes it great (again IMO). One minute a fight can be two guys swinging for the fences, and the next minute someone scoops up the other one and slams him down using wrestling, and goes for a submission using BJJ, great stuff. The mere fact that a boxing fan would cite a MMA brawl as a reason he doesn't like it is a little odd. Some of boxing great fights have been brawling wars, no doubt about it. The bar room brawler comment is really embarrassing as well. The days of Tank Abbott coming in and doing well are long over. Guys train, guys train hard. You are a one dimensional slugger, you're going to lose. (See Houston Alexander).

I just seen a comment where a poster asked "Okay, but are you going to watch wrestling in the Olympics". The answer is no, not at all, off course not, why would you even ask that?

That is as silly as a question as "okay, well you love hockey, are you going to watch the deking competition in the summer?" I love MMA for the vast variety of disciplines being used. I love watching a wrestler in MMA who expands his skills and evolves. Pure wrestling is very boring to me, not interesting in it by itself. Doesn't mean it's a bad sport though. Doesn't mean that anyone who wrestlers is just some dead beat idiot thug because I don't like that sport.

Moving on to the EliteXC show. I really couldn't stand it. The first two fights were predictable slug fests and anyone who followed the sport going in knew how they were going to end. It was an incredible disservice to Robbie Lawler and Scott Smith to have Kimbo and Thompson headline the first network show. Came across as a total "pro wrestling" event, something that Dana White and the UFC have tried to avoid over the years.

As for MMA beating the NHL in ratings.. who cares? Why should having people in America watching your favorite sport make it more or less enjoyable for you. Hockey is a fantastic sport, and MMA is growing, I don't care which one has more viewer, it does not matter to me when I sit to watch either sport. Regardless, the real test is going to be the sustainability of MMA in network TV. the XFL (Vince Macmahons failed attempt at pro football) debuted to similar numbers on NBC as well, and tailed off quickly when it was a pro wrestling version of football. If EliteXC doesn't turn things around, I hope they suffer a similar fate.

MMA is a great sport, I love it. But if it isn't for you that doesn't mean it's barbaric and for brutes who have no skill. If guys like J Pold, and JayP don't think it takes skill they should walk into BDB Martial arts in Calgary.. and just watch. Watch Brad Bird teach his students the ins and outs of submission grappling, how much technique, skill, and dedication it takes to be a top flight Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner.

Sorry for being all over the place, but there was alot of things to cover in the little time I had.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by troutman

Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard could beat stronger opponents with their minds. Does this happen in MMA, or does the strongest guy pretty much always win?

First off thats a ridiculous statement. They clearly won because they had more skill and were the better fighter on that night. Just because they were good at talking smack does not mean thats how they beat their opponent. Did it play a role? Possibly but it can hardly be proven. A stronger boxer is not going to win just because he's stronger, if he can't hit his opponent or keep himself from getting picked apart he is going to lose.

Strongest does not always win. Not even close, examples, Just from last weekend, Tito Ortiz vs Lyoto Machida, Wanderlei vs Jardine (close but jardine is bigger) ,brock lesnar vs Mir, Tim Sylvia Vs. Nogueira, Hong Man Choi vs Fedor, A.Emelianenko vs Ricardo Morais, Bj Penn vs Sherk, Matt Serra beating GSP, Fedor vs Randleman. Then you can look at huge strong guys like Dan Bobbish, and Wes Sims, who are very big and strong, and not good fighters at all.. Throw Josh Thompson in that category as well.

Mac Danzig competed and won the ultimate fighter fighter a weight class above his weight. Kenny Florian fought 2 weight classes above his weight to make it to the finals of the ultimate fighter. ANY FIGHTER WHO HAS BEATEN BOB SAPP, every single person who has been beaten by Shinya Aoki, all 79 of Jeremy Horn's victories have pretty much been against bigger stronger guys, a guy like Damian Maia is not all that big yet he is undefeated.

Should I stop now or should I keep going?? A lot of times the "STRONGER" guy gets tired first because he has more muscle, and you see him getting subbed...

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by troutman

Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard could beat stronger opponents with their minds. Does this happen in MMA, or does the strongest guy pretty much always win?

Strength is an advantage of course, but if a guy is relying on pure strength he will lose 100% of the time. Especially when you consider that one of the main aspects of Mixed Martial Arts is the sport of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which teaches (and actually applies) negating opponents strength and using it against him.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Slice really didn't impress me though, and it was too soon to main event the guy on a national tv slot.

Ditto. I tuned in part way through and the commentators were gushing so much about the guy and all I saw was a slow big guy with heavy punches. And really, he took a long long time before he put barely enough together to get that guy out...and even then the stoppage was pretty weak.

A better example of good MMA would be the Pulver - Faber match they showed on TSN last night. That was pretty strong. Or the last PPV a couple of weeks ago, 90% of those matches were fantastic.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

Ditto. I tuned in part way through and the commentators were gushing so much about the guy and all I saw was a slow big guy with heavy punches. And really, he took a long long time before he put barely enough together to get that guy out...and even then the stoppage was pretty weak.

A better example of good MMA would be the Pulver - Faber match they showed on TSN last night. That was pretty strong. Or the last PPV a couple of weeks ago, 90% of those matches were fantastic.

Watching the WEC last night... and seeing Torres/Maedea and Faber/Pulver in two fight of the years type fights back to back had me wishing that is what most of America saw Saturday night on CBS. 4 highly skilled guys showing the pure dymanic and fast paced version of Mixed Martial Arts instead of two slow awkward underskilled idiots beating each others brains in. Gary Shaw and EliteXC are bad for the sport, but that's another rant altogether.

[RougeUnderoos]

One thing Kimbo Slice might do is put an end to the old "you just have to be a tough guy" myth.

He's the "toughest guy" of them all and he wouldn't last 30 seconds with any name MMA heavyweight. He'll probably never even get close.

[Slava]

^ He wouldn't last a round with a skilled middleweight! I would put money on Anderson Silva to take him out before the end of the first round.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Slava

^ He wouldn't last a round with a skilled middleweight! I would put money on Anderson Silva to take him out before the end of the first round.

Anyone with a sniff of BJJ would take him down and tap him out or put him to sleep.