Hamas launches TV Bugs Bunny-lookalike who declares 'I will eat the Jews'

[Calgaryborn]

I think the western media has been guilty in the Middle East of ignoring this particular problem. What a nation tells its own people is probably as important or more important than what it says to the world. Because Hamas is in disfavor with the western media we see this story. What did Arafat teach the Palestinian children while he was in power? It takes a village to raise a suicide bomber and the Palestinians have raised quite a few. This culture of hate is the number one reason there is no peace in the middle east.

I think the way you combat this propagamma is education; Not censorship. The free exchange of knowledge and ideas changes hearts and minds.

[Vulcan]

Didn't we have this discussion a couple of years ago concerning a children's comic book on how to be a martyr and blow up the Jews. Pretty freakin bad but I think the Popeye cartoon gives us some perspective on what either side will do.
I grew up in the post war and during the cold war and attitudes were different then. We had no problem dropping racial or cultural slurs and never thought much about it.
I just watched the Popeye cartoon and I've probably seen it a few times before and never thought a lot about it. In fact watching it now, to me it seemed okay, because that's the attitude I was raised with and that's disconcerting because I know it's blatant racist propaganda. It's like I've been programmed with tapes, some good and some bad that need to be erased. I pity these Palestinian children but who's to say in 66 years or so we'll look back at some of our own children's shows, cartoons, comics and games and say, how could we have done that to our children.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

goverment produced childrens show design to indoctrinate kids, that Popeye episode was produced by a private company. It may have had a similar effect 60 years ago, but it wasnt sactioned by the US goverment.

I'm pretty sure everything coming out of Hollywood was government sanctioned or at least censured during the war. At that time the Soviets were the good guys. I still remember one of my early textbooks extolling the USSR. Hollywood changes as US needs change.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p104_Wikoff.html

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think the western media has been guilty in the Middle East of ignoring this particular problem. What a nation tells its own people is probably as important or more important than what it says to the world. Because Hamas is in disfavor with the western media we see this story. What did Arafat teach the Palestinian children while he was in power? It takes a village to raise a suicide bomber and the Palestinians have raised quite a few. This culture of hate is the number one reason there is no peace in the middle east.

I think the way you combat this propagamma is education; Not censorship. The free exchange of knowledge and ideas changes hearts and minds.

Thats admirable, but its never ever going to happen because the path to power, and wealth over there is based around keeping your people stupid and angry. And since stupid and angry is often the path of least resistance, some individuals, and especially the young are going to eat this stuff up like a spoon. So outside of a western based elimination of Hamas which won't matter anyways because another group of wingnuts will just take its place with the willing approval of the people, its never going to change and that area is going to continue to be a hot bed of hatred and radicalism.

You have to ask yourself where even the indignation is from other governments of other Arab nations who have helped along with Israel in keeping this flame alive? Its easy to blame the Western Media, but frankly they report stories that are there.

There will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel, and especially the other Arab nations step up and deal with the Palestine question and work to marginalize the Idiots like Hammas. But its never going to happen because Hammas will fight tooth and nail to make sure that their political and hate ideology take precedence over the welfare of the very people that keep them in power.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Give it up thats from 60 years ago. The comparison is weak at best, hell there was still segregation in the southern US for another 20 years.. The fact is Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza and the West Bank.. That is a goverment produced childrens show design to indoctrinate kids, that Popeye episode was produced by a private company. It may have had a similar effect 60 years ago, but it wasnt sactioned by the US goverment.

So because it was produced by a private company, it didn't have the same effect on kids? How do you know this? Were you around in 1942 to see it?

Do you seriously think kids care who produces the show? The facts are the same - both are racist, both are reaching to children's audiences, and the only difference between these two cartoons is the year they were produced. I'm a little dumbfounded at how this got turned into an arguement of who produces the shows, rather than it's intended effect.

I'm really...REALLY...not sure how much more simple I can make that. Unless you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You have to ask yourself where even the indignation is from other governments of other Arab nations who have helped along with Israel in keeping this flame alive? Its easy to blame the Western Media, but frankly they report stories that are there.

I blame the western media because they failed to report in depth what
Arafat was telling his own people. If that story would have been told the PLO would have stopped receiving their funding from the West and we would be where we are today several years ago without the carnage that took place in between.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel, and especially the other Arab nations step up and deal with the Palestine question and work to marginalize the Idiots like Hammas. But its never going to happen because Hammas will fight tooth and nail to make sure that their political and hate ideology take precedence over the welfare of the very people that keep them in power.

Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic but, I can't see Hammas keeping control indefinitely without western money. They may be being helped by Iran or a similar nation right now. I don't know. But even if they are I'm willing to bet it doesn't meet their long term needs.

Someone is paying the electrical bill at their TV station and all the other expenses associated with keeping it on the air. Someone pays for the school system that teaches these little terrorists to grow up to be big terrorists.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I blame the western media because they failed to report in depth what
Arafat was telling his own people. If that story would have been told the PLO would have stopped receiving their funding from the West and we would be where we are today several years ago without the carnage that took place in between.

Thats partially true, Lucia Corbellia or whatever her name is and other members of the media took great pains in reporting the hypocrisies about Arafat's speeches and the fact that the speeches that he made for international consumption were far different from the speeches he made in country. So I don't blame the Western Media as much as I blame the governments of the civilized world who took the easy way out in terms of trying to make Palestine blameless in the Israeli/arab nations conflicts.

Fact is, its easy to blame Israel, and they have played a lot of this scenario stupid, but its rare that anyone blamed the other states in the area for using the Palestine plight as a international political statement, and allow that nation to boil over into the den of hatred that is there now.

I blame the UN for not doing anything productive, but allowing their agenda to be controlled by those same Arab states, and not being strong enough to create an enforced peace.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic but, I can't see Hammas keeping control indefinitely without western money. They may be being helped by Iran or a similar nation right now. I don't know. But even if they are I'm willing to bet it doesn't meet their long term needs.

Someone is paying the electrical bill at their TV station and all the other expenses associated with keeping it on the air. Someone pays for the school system that teaches these little terrorists to grow up to be big terrorists.

I think you are being optimistic, and I'm not bashing you for it, but Hammas will retain power for as long as they want because they can put the blame for every ty thing in their country on external forces, they can keep their people hungry and uneducated, but its all the Jews fault and its all the Wests fault. And Iran and the other radical groups will continue to supply money, weapons and training funds so that those angry young men who are too stupid to think about who they blame will continue to make the situation in Palestine worse.

The oldest rule of law, is he who has the guns has the power, and Hammas not only has the guns, but they have the rhetoric, and they have the sympathies of their people.

The only way to get rid of Hammas, is to kill everyone in a leadership position and create a leadership void that will be filled by less competent and less experienced leaders.

The only other way to get rid of Hammas, is to starve them into submission, but again that won't happen because Palestine, doesn't have a opposition with a message of regional peace, or negotiation for bread and electricity.

Israel is in a terrible spot because they can't and won't negotiate with Hammas, and there's no point to it because the extremists groups are only interested in negotiating to gain time to push through their agenda of the destruction of Isreal.

Frankly, and the reason why I'm not optimistic is because Aid money would go to guns and rockets, your not going to topple Hammas from power politically because of the intimidation factor in that if they lose an election, they'll declare war on their own people. You can't educate these people because the only education that will ever happen there is based on a stupid hate filled ideology, since they won't let anyone take ownership of their key propaganda source.

This conflict is going to go on for a thousand years.

Rant off.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats admirable, but its never ever going to happen because the path to power, and wealth over there is based around keeping your people stupid and angry. And since stupid and angry is often the path of least resistance, some individuals, and especially the young are going to eat this stuff up like a spoon. So outside of a western based elimination of Hamas which won't matter anyways because another group of wingnuts will just take its place with the willing approval of the people, its never going to change and that area is going to continue to be a hot bed of hatred and radicalism.

You also left out an important factor, fear. Okay, now apply that to our society and culture. Notice any similarities? The same things that happen over there happen over here, only our systems are much more calculating and sophisticated, so they do not appear to be as overt. We are fully indoctrinated into a certain belief structure, and the messages our media continues to feed us continually manipulates that programing.

You have to ask yourself where even the indignation is from other governments of other Arab nations who have helped along with Israel in keeping this flame alive? Its easy to blame the Western Media, but frankly they report stories that are there.

You have to ask yourself, where is the indignation from other governments of other western nations who have helped Israel oppress the Palestinians? What position would you take if you had become "illegal" in your own hostric homeland? There are two sides to this issue, but the western media never shows them. If we saw the conditions that the Palestinians were forced to live under, we likely would wave a much different perspective. Unfortunately, western media is very sympathetic to the Israeli cause and we see an incredible amount of censorship and spin that prevents the information that may lead to some educated discourse on this subject from happening. We'll revert to point one of your post to answer why.

There will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel, and especially the other Arab nations step up and deal with the Palestine question and work to marginalize the Idiots like Hammas. But its never going to happen because Hammas will fight tooth and nail to make sure that their political and hate ideology take precedence over the welfare of the very people that keep them in power.

There will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel, and especially the other western nations step up and deal with the Palestine question and work to marginalize the Idiots like Lukid. But its never going to happen because Lukid will fight tooth and nail to make sure that their political and hate ideology take precedence over the welfare of the very people that keep them in power.

See how easy it is to show the other side of this story? There are two parties involved, and both have extreme views. Until moderates from both sides come to the table, this argument is not going to be resolved any time soon.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

How many kids do you think have television in the Gaza strip? And for those that do...

...how many have electricity for it?

More than kids in 1942 "at war USA" ?

[CaptainCrunch]

So let me ask you this civilly What else is Israel supposed to do. Negotiate land for peace? Release more of the prisoners? Send aid money to Hammas. Not retaliate when Hammas attacks their civilian base?

I'm just curious, because Israel has tried all of these things, and all it gets them is more suicide bombers, more attacks on their civilians, more attacks after Hamma's buys more weapons?

I'm curious as to why Israel needs to continually need to make the first steps here to please the international community?

Personally the Palestine question is never going to be solved because from their side, its not a political exercise, its one based around ideology.

Hammas can't accept Israel as a nation, even though Israel has a right to survive and occupy that real estate under international law. When they had an opportunity to gain Western favor, and to renew international aid by renouncing violence, and recognizing a Jewish state, they refused to do it.

And all of the nations that continue to fund Hammas in terms of weapons, training and food for their "Soldiers", they're just as culpable in the deaths of innocent Palestines as Israel is.

Abbas has had more success in working with Israel because he deals with it as a political problem. Hammas can't do that, but they're happy with what they've got because they've created a breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists and suicide bombers and rocket technicians.

The problem, and I've stated before is that if there is another election, and Hamma's loses power, they'll have another enemy target in Palestine.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah, except one happened in 1942...in an era of all out war....the other happened in 2008 where humans should have advanced beyond brainwashing kids.

Not to say that I think this is equivelent to what Western societies do to educate/indoctrinate youth, but I'm afraid this statement is full of holes.

First, I am sure those living in the region, specifically Lebanon and Israel, would call their situation 'all out war'.

Second, there is no way you can compare completely different societies by saying, "... in 2008 ..." because this means nothing. You can't tell me that you think that you could go into the wilds of Africa and find tribespeople who live very differently from you and expect their society to be similar to yours because 'it's 2008'.

Society goes on a spectrum, so this is an extreme example, but you can't look at where OUR society is in 2008 and expect someone else's to be there as well.

[CaptainCrunch]

Please show me propaganda posters from WWII where hollywood or the U.S. government is advocating the use of violence and wholesale slaughter of every man woman and child in Germany or Japan.

Please show me any propaganda that shows the enemy not wearing a uniform?

Because to me, war propaganda is different then terrorist generated hate ideology fueled fueled propaganda that advocates suicide bombing, and the extermination of an entire group of people.

As a WWII comparable, a propaganda show would illustrate U.S. soldiers bayoneting a stack of Japanese woman and children while a GI smokes a cigarette gives a thumbs up and extorts you to starve your family and use all of your savings to buy war bonds.

[blankall]

I think another thing that differentiates the WWII message from the Hamas message is that the Hamas message is not just directed at their supposed enemies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7246454.stm

Hamas' message is one of general intolerance.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LaAv...eature=related

[Crispy's Critter]

bottom line is that fanatics of any religion (and they are all guilty of having a few) are extremely dangerous in one way or another, and unfortunately they aren't going away anytime soon. Even though great strides have been made throughout the world towards tolerance and understanding of other cultures, all it takes is a few to keep racism, bigotry, and hatred alive. Even if only 1 in 10 people pick up the racist ball and run with it, that will ensure that persecution of other races, religions, etc. will never be eradicated. Also quite unfortunately there will always be weak-minded individuals either unwilling or incapable of thinking for themselves, who are easily swayed by the opinions and arguments of others, meaning there will never be a shortage of people willing to follow fanatical ideals. You'd think that any religion or race that aims messages of hatred at young children would throw up a red flag with the parents though, but I guess if the parents themselves were indoctrinated at an early age they wouldn't be able to figure out that it is wrong and harming their children.

P.S. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I have been indoctrinated by those damn Captain Morgan ad execs and have consumed large quantities of rum tonight. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to a bar, have a fake sword fight with pool cues, then go to a pizza place and order a pizza for delivery so I can get a ride home with some creepy dude.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So let me ask you this civilly What else is Israel supposed to do. Negotiate land for peace? Release more of the prisoners? Send aid money to Hammas. Not retaliate when Hammas attacks their civilian base?

I'll answer that question point-by-point, because they propaganda tools that have been sold very well to the west.

Negotiate land for peace? This is the most interesting issue you bring up because Israel would be negotitating with something that they don't rightfully own. Even the Israelis acknowledge this by calling it exactly what it is, "occupied territories". They have forced settlements in pockets of lands that they have siezed through military operations, creating even more displacement than there was before. Now to negotiate these lands for peace is an insult IMO. It would be like someone taskin your home by force, then telling you they will give back the bedroom if you promise not to be pissed at them anymore. How about they just get out of your home, period? The lands that Israel is negotiating with is not theirs to begin with. The international community recognizes that and the UN has attempted to pass resolution after resolution to solve the matter. Israel's primary allie continues to veto these resolutions so nothing ever gets accomplished.

Release more of the prisoners? The Israelis release 10 people, then arrest 20 more. They are making concessions that don't mean anything. It plays well with those who don't bother counting or keeping score, but in reality, it doesn't mean anything.

Send aid money to Hammas. That doesn't even deserve a response.

Not retaliate when Hammas attacks their civilian base? What else are they to do? They can't reach Israeli bases. When they retaliate against the Israeli forces in the occupied territories all hell breaks loose. When they kidnap the soldiers, all hell breaks loose. The options are few, so they use what tactics they have. Now, how about when Israel obliterates entire neighborhoods? How about when they lay waste to entire towns? During the major conflict the Israeli forces completely leveled two towns and did not leave a single building standing, displacing every single man, woman and child. How about that? Is that kosher?

I'm just curious, because Israel has tried all of these things, and all it gets them is more suicide bombers, more attacks on their civilians, more attacks after Hamma's buys more weapons?

Israel should get the hell out of the occupied territories to start off. They are an occupying force and as long as they are there, there will be tensions. Israel also needs to start treating the Palestinians with the respect they deserve. Herding them like cattle and making them live in squalor certainly doesn't help their cause.

I'm curious as to why Israel needs to continually need to make the first steps here to please the international community?

Maybe because Israel was created out of nothing? Maybe because Israel was forced on the region without anyone's approval? Maybe because Israel has the military might to kick the crap out of anyone in the region? They are the bully on the block and if the bully wants to make some friends he has to first stop acting like a bully.

Personally the Palestine question is never going to be solved because from their side, its not a political exercise, its one based around ideology.

Its the same from both sides. This is an ideoolgical battle, and extremeists on both sides are in control of matters. Moderates from both sides need to find solutions, but those moderates do not have a voice because the extremeists continue to poison the waters of peace.

Hammas can't accept Israel as a nation, even though Israel has a right to survive and occupy that real estate under international law. When they had an opportunity to gain Western favor, and to renew international aid by renouncing violence, and recognizing a Jewish state, they refused to do it.

Isreal can't accept Palestine as a nation, even though Palestine has a right to survive and occupy their real estate under ownership and international laws. When they had an opportunity to gain Western favor, and to renew international aid by renouncing violence, and recognizing a Hammas as the people's representatives of their state, they refused to do it.

And all of the nations that continue to fund Hammas in terms of weapons, training and food for their "Soldiers", they're just as culpable in the deaths of innocent Palestines as Israel is.

The nation that continues to fund Israel in terms of weapons, training and food for their "Soldiers", they're just as culpable in the deaths of innocent Israelis as Hammas is. (wow, these dichotomous positions are just so easy to beat up) Maybe if America stopped enabling the bullies the Israelis would be forced to the table. The same goes to the other side as well. As long as the weapons continue to flow, the violence will continue.

Abbas has had more success in working with Israel because he deals with it as a political problem. Hammas can't do that, but they're happy with what they've got because they've created a breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists and suicide bombers and rocket technicians.

Yeah, that's it. It's all Hammas. Have you ever wondered WHY the people support Hammas and no one else? Could it be because the Israelis will not negotiate like reasonable people? The Palestinians continue to be oppressed in their own lands and nothing changes. One step forward is taken forward, followed with two steps back. After a while you just give up and resort to anyone who has the ability to stand up to the bully.

The problem, and I've stated before is that if there is another election, and Hamma's loses power, they'll have another enemy target in Palestine.

The problem is that both sides need to start acting reasonably. Israel needs to extracate themselves from the occupied territories and rebuild the region. Hammas needs to start acting like the representatives of the people and start representing the long term needs of the people. The Osraelis have most of the power because they have the military and infrastructure control that allows for the silent oppression to continue on a daily basis.