fun with nickleback

[Faid1]

You guys sure like to write alot of words over a rock band.

[Phanuthier]

Originally posted by Faid1@Dec 5 2004, 08:21 AM
You guys sure like to write alot of words over a rock band.

Music (moreso drums) is a passion in life for me. Just like hockey is, for me and the rest of us - which we seem to write alot of words about a hockey team.

[Phanuthier]

Man I'm wasting alot of time on this tread

Here's a music score to show you the use of a dotted eighth. It's a bit off here for the one used by Nickleback - it is a sixteenth dotted eighth with a sixteenth

http://www.drumspot.com/img60/op_1_dm_1027...00516_e_g_1.jpg

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Phanuthier@Dec 5 2004, 08:09 AM
Just wanted to point this out for you Lanny

http://www.ludwig-drums.com/content/produc.../march_bass.php
http://www.ludwig-drums.com/content/produc.../march_bass.php
http://www.kellyindustries.com/drums...ick_drums.html

Is the base drum still just the fat kid in band with the big mallet?

If you want to try calling bullsh*t on someone, you should probably get it right.

You really are a piece of work Phaneuf. Look at the links you provided. Jesus, they say it right in the url themselves from the sites you post as support. The bass drum reference is under marching band equipment (www.ludwig-drums.com/content/products/guide/march_bass.php). Under kits, the "bass drum" as you like to call it, is refered to a kick (www.kellyindustries.com/drums/pearl_kick_drums.html). Wanna settle more of my arguments for me? Can you be any more counter to your own argument?

"Here's a music score to show you the use of a dotted eighth. It's a bit off here for the one used by Nickleback - it is a sixteenth dotted eighth with a sixteenth

http://www.drumspot.com/img60/op_1_d...0516_e_g_1.jpg "

Wow! One whole dotted eighth note, and used in a non-pattern fashion. Man, you sure showed me. Don't worry about the rest of the score where he's hammering out that standard eight beat on the high hat. The fact that you managed to find that single dotted eighth means that this is the rock standard.

"What the hell? Can't you read? I said the DRUMS part in 2 bar stanza's, not the entire music. Listen to some Red Hot Chilli Peppers, they demostrate it very well - especially Zephyr song, which really points it out for you in the intro."

So the intro is the same as the rest of the music then? Is this what you are saying? That what happens in the intro is really what the rock beat and the job of the drummer is all about? You're going to try and formulate your argument on the first few bars of a piece or hang it on one single bar? I'd go back to my music teacher and demand my money back. The majority of the music played beats (pardon the pun) the ret of your argument to death.

"These stanza's are repeated until the transition (otherwise known as "bridge") where the chorus is usually something different (especially in concert) where after, the drummer sometimes may be given a chance to improvise for a bit."

Don't you mean the "pre-chorus"?

The drummer's job is all about timing and maintaining the timing for the rest of the band to follow. These "stanzas" which you refer are used to keep time. The transitions at the bridge are marked by the drummer's break in his rhythm. Creativity is important to a drummer, but the ability to maintain that rhythm and keep the beat and time for the song is the most important task a drummer has. More train wrecks have been caused by a drummer losing his tempo or varying from the anticipated or annotated score.

"EDIT: Actually, giving this 12 bar blues crap some thought, it seems that you are talking about the entire band (or ensamble) as a whole; or guitarists or other instruments, because I drummers usually don't have the same beat during the improv."

Well, I'm glad you are giving this 12 bar blues crap some thought. It is the basis for all rock and roll music, so I'm glad you decided to give it some thought. I'm a little confused how a guy that has studied so much music and has such a long list of musical achievments doesn't recognize the role a drummer has in a rock (or country or jazz) band. You toss out the term "during the improv" like its going to have a bearing on the argument of playing regimented music. I don't care what happens during a jam session, we're talking about execution of a scored song, where improvisation is a no-no (or were you sick in school the day that your music teacher explained that factoid). The drummer's primary job is to act as the metronome and keep the band all playing at the speed or time.

"So why was another time signature (meter) used? Simplicity. The drummer's job
So different time signictures are used for a drummer to go into auto-pilot? s'cuse me, cause I believe something called rubato, or "robbed time" was introdued almost 300 years ago, and sure as hell is used. Otherwise, ways of creating tension or the feel of slowing down can be created by the drummers ability to try and pull forward or backwards (not sure if thats the correct terms since I was never a music conductor) while the rest stay status quo. I can tell you for sure, as can any drummer or any musician at all (or in your terms, any "self respecting drummer") that drumming is more then getting the time signicture and hitting auto-pilot."

Tempo rubato is indeed a key concept to understand for a musician, as the variance in timing (not a change in signature, but a slowing or speeding up of the speed at which the music is played) can portray more emotion. But it does not come into the equation of what is being discussed. It does not change the fact that the drummer is the time keeper for the band and is responsible for maintaining timing. If a drummer cannot keep a standard tempo and cannot maintain a beat which the band can play with, then he is not doing his job. What temp rubato does point out is how important the drummer's beat is, and the importantce of his ability to maintain time and lay down a beat that the band can follow. When the tempo changes it is crucial for the drummer to lead the way and give his band mates something to follow.

Are you also suggesting that a drummer plays to a different time signature from the rest of the band? Just curious as you are saying that the time signature is irrlelevant. Because here's the sheet music for the guitar and bass of a Nickleback song and you'll notice that its all in the same time register and even in the same key. You'll also notice that there is annotation telling you how many beats per minute there, for the drummer to follow and set his internal metronome if you like.



"Any drummer can tell you what makes a drummer good isn't so much his technique or ability to keep time, but his ability to improvise on the spot - definatly not the template that you seem to imply"

So you're telling me that a drummer's first and most important job is not to project and maintain time, but it is to improvise in the spot? Go back to that music teacher and ask for your money back again as he has sold you a bad bill of goods. The most talented drummers in the world are the ones who can lay down a solid beat and maintain the tempo. Improvisation and creativity is a great skill, and separates many drummers from others, but if they can't maintain that beat, what good are they? Neil Peart is one of the most talented drummers around, and creates some of the most complex beats imaginable, but he does so in a manner that lays down a static time that Lee and Liefson can follow. The same could be said of Kieth Moon or John Bonham. Both were fantastic drummers that could hammer out a solo like no one around, but their brilliance shone through in their ability to maintain time for some extremely creative players. Without this key skill the players would be all over the road map and the music would be uncomprehendable.

"(PS: Bonus points for telling me WHY 3/4 time is ideal for waltz)"

Gee Sparky, could it have anything to do with the dance itself and the waltz being a three step dance, hence there being three beats in a bar?

"(PS 2: Bonus points for telling me what is usually done on the snare - because is sure isn't hitting the snare with the head of your drum stick.)"

I have no idea what you are getting at nor talking about. Maybe be a little more precise in what you are asking.

"Now for your last long paragraph, what I was pointing out was the REPEAT of 2 bar stanza's (8 beats) which DOES NOT include the transition or chorus. I know this from playing myself, not reading a textbook like you seem to have done. Thus you probably are right in your textbook definition and boom snap snaps and whop de dongs, but I know as a drummer what a beat, 2 bar stanza is for a drummer. I'm sticking to my knowledge as a drummer, so why don't you stick to your textbooks of boom snap dongs? Like I said, I never studied post-1900 music. Grade 3 history studies the Romantic era, Grade 4 - what I was in before I quit - was Classical. "

So, you never studied 20th century music? Well, that's not much of a shock. Trust me, it stands out like a sore thumb. And you're saying that I am talking about text books and stuff, yet it is you who continually throws out "facts" that you learned in your many music classes, especially during the studies of the Romatic era (I would assume that this is when the first power ballad was written - j/k) and such. I speak in practical terms and try to explain it so everyone can understand it. Since the majority of rock musicians have never taken music lessons, never studied music theory, and have never had to notate their own work (relying on tab charts or tape to notate their work) it is usually best to work from their foundation, right? Hence the use of 12 bar blues to explain things. Its the basis of rock and roll music and what the majority of songs conform to.

"As for what you seem to have conviniently missed, why don't you explain exactly why 4/4 is perferred for rock then 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4? And why a dotted eighth is even used at all? That will test your fundimental knowledge of music and beat as well. In fact, I think this was actually Grade 1 theory for RCM, but since I skipped that grade, it was either 1 or 2."

I have. The whole 12 bar blues angle. You have yet to explain a damn thing about rock music and are talking crap about the Romantic period and the classics. I guess I should ask you if you even know what 12 bar blues is? I should also ask why a highly trained drummer like yourself has not even mentioned a single rudiment. You do know what a rudiment is don't you? You have not even mentioned a single one to support your claim that the dotted eighth note is the dominant rudiment (which it is not). As a matter of fact, here are the 13 percussive rudiments. Please find that dotted eighth note in there for us.



Where's that dotted eighth? In the drag, and in the non-standard time annotations.

As you will see the rudiments are written in standard time (4/4). The annotations for 3/4, 6/8 and 2/4 are shown so you can see they are the exact same rudiment (pattern) used, just annotated differently to work with the restricted beats in the bar. Or is this too simple for your advanced mind to comprehend?

Hey, why don't YOU educate us all as to why 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4 are not used in rock music (I mean besides them being awkward for the music written and too complex for the average garage band to play). Please, you want to shine, here's your chance.

"Finally, I would love to butt heads with you on music the next time you and I are in Calgary, or if you ever come up to Edmonton and can find me a drum set to play on. Or on a piano, where I have the same level of music. If you really were so connected with percussionists across Calgary, you would have heard about Gordon Chadney or the Westmount Percussive Performance Association (Lil' Tweed, Tocada and Tweed). Or even high schools like Sir Winston Churchill, who have Gordon Chadney helping with Percussion Ensamble. For the year and a half I played with Tocada, we were the host band at the Kiwanis music festival for the rest of the bands, as well as feature bands for special events across town. If you were as well connected, or know as many drummer or musicians in Calgary, you would know Gordon Chadney. All marching bands and school bands know him, as well as teachers and even the owner of St John's Music in Calgary (dt) who plays in Gordon Chadney's band Tweed. His students won every Kiwanis Music Festival award there was as well.

I can easily prove to you my accomplishments in certificate and letter form; right now, I have photocopies of my awards for my Job applications if you want pictures of photocopies - otherwise, when I get home, I can easily take pictures of all my certificates to prove what I'm saying is true. Just ask for it and I can supply copies on the spot, or the origanals when I go home. "

So you've got a bunch of pieces of paper. So what? cIts a nice resume, but an you actually execute what you learned? Can you apply it? I'm not so sure. So far you have not shown any understanding of basic rock and roll nor its roots.

[ricosuave]

its a good thing these guys arent IN a band together...

[kermitology]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 5 2004, 12:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 5 2004, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kermitology@Dec 5 2004, 02:23 AM
And Lanny.. you mean to tell me you don't know what a pre-chorus is?

Yeah, its what most people call the bridge. But hey, to each his own I guess. I've never heard anyone who has written music refer to it as the "pre-chorus". Like I said elsewhere, its like a network admin refering to his disk farm as hard disk space. [/b][/quote]
I beg to differ, a pre-chorus is a repeated set of bars that come before the chorus, a bridge is only played once in a song. So no-one who has written music calls it a pre-chorus? I've written music, and I call it a pre-chorus, my jazz guitar and bassist calls it a pre-chorus, my former guitarist calls it a pre-chorus, my drummer and trombone player calls it a pre-chorus, my guitar teacher of old, who is a celebrated jazz guitarist calls it a pre-chorus.. Oh, but you don't know any musicians who call it a pre-chorus so you're right.

And a kick and bass are the same, my drummer and I interchange the terms often.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by kermitology+Dec 5 2004, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kermitology @ Dec 5 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yeah, its what most people call the bridge. But hey, to each his own I guess. I've never heard anyone who has written music refer to it as the "pre-chorus". Like I said elsewhere, its like a network admin refering to his disk farm as hard disk space.

I beg to differ, a pre-chorus is a repeated set of bars that come before the chorus, a bridge is only played once in a song. So no-one who has written music calls it a pre-chorus? I've written music, and I call it a pre-chorus, my jazz guitar and bassist calls it a pre-chorus, my former guitarist calls it a pre-chorus, my drummer and trombone player calls it a pre-chorus, my guitar teacher of old, who is a celebrated jazz guitarist calls it a pre-chorus.. Oh, but you don't know any musicians who call it a pre-chorus so you're right.

And a kick and bass are the same, my drummer and I interchange the terms often. [/b][/quote]
And as I said kermitology, I can't recall anyone use that terminology before. I am stating my experience in playing and writing for contests, and playing with those who do it for a living. What ever terminology you want to use, fill your boots, I won't lose any sleep over it. I actually like the term and how you describe its function, just never heard it described as such. On the drum, again, use what ever terminology you like. I haven't heard anyone call a kick a bass drum since I was junior high school (a long time) and have been through four different kits since then, ordering them directly from the manufacturer. I can see your point about using the term as I have heard it when dicussing double kick kits (double bass). Again, what ever terminolgy you use is up to you. All of the guys I've played with and worked with in supplying equipment have all used similar terminology to attain some understand. I guess you could use the word fraggleforp to describe the equipment if you both understood the context. What ever fills your boots.

Changing gears, what do you play and where?

[Phanuthier]

Click on the actual link Lanny

Pearl FX1418B
Forum Bass Drum

Pearl MMX222EDX Masters
4-ply Custom Maple
18 x 22 In Bass Drum

FYI a kick drum is when the kick pedel is attached to the base drum. The bass drum itself is also part of the kid. Christ man, can't you figure it out? I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying that what I'm saying is correct; what your saying is correct as well, just a finer detail of it. Again, please... if you don't know dick about drums, then stop going around calling bullsh*t on everyone; it just makes you look stupid. Say, if a bass drum is called a "kick" then what is a bass drum with 2 kicks? Is the bass drum then called a 2 kick?

Wow! One whole dotted eighth note, and used in a non-pattern fashion. Man, you sure showed me. Don't worry about the rest of the score where he's hammering out that standard eight beat on the high hat. The fact that you managed to find that single dotted eighth means that this is the rock standard.

What is this, age getting to you? You must be losing your memory, I said early that dotted eights were done in 2 bar stanza's, while transitions to the chorus and after the chorus may be different and are usually improvised. Again, its clearly obvious that you've never held a pair of drum sticks before.

So the intro is the same as the rest of the music then? Is this what you are saying?
Generally, I haven't heard it in a while, but Zephyr song and Californication both do dotted eighth's or sixteens continuiously besidies transitions. Try tapping the beat to yourself and its not overly hard to figure out.

The drummer's job is all about timing and maintaining the timing for the rest of the band to follow.
You must be living on the past. True, the drummer's job is to keep the beat, but in music these days (especially >2000 music) there is alot more the drummer can do to create tension and release. Most drummers would sh*t on your idea that they are supposed to be just metrome's.

These "stanzas" which you refer are used to keep time.
You don't know what a Stanza is? Oh god. That's Grade 1 rudiments. I knew what a stanza was in Grade 2 for God's sake.

The transitions at the bridge are marked by the drummer's break in his rhythm. Creativity is important to a drummer, but the ability to maintain that rhythm and keep the beat and time for the song is the most important task a drummer has. More train wrecks have been caused by a drummer losing his tempo or varying from the anticipated or annotated score.
True, but I guess you never heard about rubato then.

Well, I'm glad you are giving this 12 bar blues crap some thought. It is the basis for all rock and roll music, so I'm glad you decided to give it some thought. I'm a little confused how a guy that has studied so much music and has such a long list of musical achievments doesn't recognize the role a drummer has in a rock (or country or jazz) band.
Let me hold your hand through this then...
http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/conservatory/mus_theory.shtml
History III covers the Romantic Era, from Schubert to Tchaikovsky.

History IV covers 1400 years of music, from Pope Gregory to Beethoven.

History V covers the last century, from Debussy to R. Murray Schafer.

I studied Grade 3 History and part way through Grade 4. In piano, we don't cover rock stuff, ditto school bands, percussion was not rock (except Ritmo Suave - sp??) which ahd Rock beat I believe, and covered Rock beat briefly, but never went into detail. While lessons covered the set for half the time, exams were done by snare drum solo's, marimba's and timpini's. You should know that, I'm surprised you don't considering you claim to be so knowledgable. However, 12 bar blues was never covered.

You toss out the term "during the improv" like its going to have a bearing on the argument of playing regimented music. I don't care what happens during a jam session, we're talking about execution of a scored song, where improvisation is a no-no (or were you sick in school the day that your music teacher explained that factoid). The drummer's primary job is to act as the metronome and keep the band all playing at the speed or time.
Improv's are a no-no? Are you reading this kermit? Anyone else catching this? Yeah, bans never have their drummer do a solo.

It does not change the fact that the drummer is the time keeper for the band and is responsible for maintaining timing. If a drummer cannot keep a standard tempo and cannot maintain a beat which the band can play with, then he is not doing his job. What temp rubato does point out is how important the drummer's beat is, and the importantce of his ability to maintain time and lay down a beat that the band can follow. When the tempo changes it is crucial for the drummer to lead the way and give his band mates something to follow.

Is anybody catching this as well? Yeah, rubato is not used by drummers. Wake up, its 2004! Blink again and its 2005. Tempo ruberto is used by alot of drummers, especially in bands like Nickleback. What they do is keep the same timing, but when you force the beat forward while the rest of the band stays the same tempo, it creates tension - a forced feeling if you will. And its no isloated to just drummers, piano solo's - where it was introduced by either Liszt or Chopin, I believe - as well as bass parts of a band may do this. Tempo ruberto has been used quite a bit for the last 300 years ya know

Are you also suggesting that a drummer plays to a different time signature from the rest of the band?
Sigh... no I'm not.

Just curious as you are saying that the time signature is irrlelevant.
Where did I say that?

So you're telling me that a drummer's first and most important job is not to project and maintain time, but it is to improvise in the spot?
No, god you can be thick sometimes. What I said is, past the fundimentals of keeping a beat and good technique, what sets apart the men from the boys are a drummer's creativity. Any drummer here and probably most people in a rock band can tell you that. It's not hard to do buzz's, drum rolls, para-ditles and its variations, ect...

Gee Sparky, could it have anything to do with the dance itself and the waltz being a three step dance, hence there being three beats in a bar?
I'll rephrase this for you since you can't seem to grasp the question: What is the strength of 3/4 for Waltz? 3/4 is used for alot of music other then waltz, ya know, so why 3/4? Musically, there is a concept behind it. A elementary concept that any musician should know.
(PS: Its funny that you call me a "sparky," it's what us EE's are referred to since we can't be readily called E-E's like the ChemE's, MecE's and CivE's do... just a side note, I found that rather funny)

I have no idea what you are getting at nor talking about. Maybe be a little more precise in what you are asking.
Hint 2: How is the snare getting hit? Many blues and other slower music can get offset by the hard hit of a snare drum. I think I did this in... Grade 4 percussion.)

So, you never studied 20th century music?
No I didn't, but how again does that factor into me recognizing the level of music for Nickleback again? I don't see how your connecting the dots here.

yet it is you who continually throws out "facts" that you learned in your many music classes
Huh? Where? I point out techniques done by a drummer, tendencies I've seen from drummers, not "facts." Where do you get this stuff from?

I speak in practical terms and try to explain it so everyone can understand it.
Well kermit shot that down pretty good (that rock music just isn't a template anymore)

Since the majority of rock musicians have never taken music lessons, never studied music theory, and have never had to notate their own work
What happened to "any self respecting drummer would spaz if you called it a bass drum" ? Another usher at the Saddledome (Dave) were huge drummers, and as kermit can attest to, we know our stuff - and as kermit can also attest to, neither of us were going to blow a spaz if you called a part of the drum wrong. Ontop of that, kermit must be laughing at your ignorance when you talk about auto-pilot drumming to a constant beat.

have. The whole 12 bar blues angle. You have yet to explain a damn thing about rock music and are talking crap about the Romantic period and the classics. I guess I should ask you if you even know what 12 bar blues is? I should also ask why a highly trained drummer like yourself has not even mentioned a single rudiment. You do know what a rudiment is don't you? You have not even mentioned a single one to support your claim that the dotted eighth note is the dominant rudiment (which it is not). As a matter of fact, here are the 13 percussive rudiments. Please find that dotted eighth note in there for us.

You dodged the point. Way to go to show you don't know what the hell your talkign about. I have repeated told you that I've never studied post 1900 must, which you seem to miss every time.
However, I keep on bringing this up because when talking about 4/4 timing, there is essential element that sets that apart from, say, 2/2 or 2/4 timing - there is a reason why these may have the same beats (as opposed to 3/4 or 6/8) but 4/4 is primarly used. If you understood it, you might actually get why dotted eights and dotted sixteens are used. Please, stop embarassing yourself with your ignorance about drums. I'm not going to try and pretend that I've studied rock music nor have I, but you insist on talking out of your ass about what you don't know.

(sheet music)
Who said that a dotted eights and sixteens are elementary rudiment exercies?
As you will see the rudiments are written in standard time (4/4). The annotations for 3/4, 6/8 and 2/4 are shown so you can see they are the exact same rudiment (pattern) used, just annotated differently to work with the restricted beats in the bar. Or is this too simple for your advanced mind to comprehend?
Do you have any idea why the signicture change?

As well, you know those are fundimental techniques for a snare or drum pad? And not a set?

Hey, why don't YOU educate us all as to why 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4 are not used in rock music (I mean besides them being awkward for the music written and too complex for the average garage band to play). Please, you want to shine, here's your chance.
Because I want to see if you know. It's elementary music for any musician, forget drumemrs. If you can't figure it out, admit it and I'll let you know.

So you've got a bunch of pieces of paper. So what? cIts a nice resume, but an you actually execute what you learned? Can you apply it? I'm not so sure. So far you have not shown any understanding of basic rock and roll nor its roots.
Execute what I've learned/ I've performed if thats why your asking. You asked me for my credentials, I tell you and I prove who I am. Otherwise, what are you trying to prove?

(PS: Sorry for the horrible spelling)

[Phanuthier]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 5 2004, 09:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 5 2004, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I beg to differ, a pre-chorus is a repeated set of bars that come before the chorus, a bridge is only played once in a song. So no-one who has written music calls it a pre-chorus? I've written music, and I call it a pre-chorus, my jazz guitar and bassist calls it a pre-chorus, my former guitarist calls it a pre-chorus, my drummer and trombone player calls it a pre-chorus, my guitar teacher of old, who is a celebrated jazz guitarist calls it a pre-chorus.. Oh, but you don't know any musicians who call it a pre-chorus so you're right.

And a kick and bass are the same, my drummer and I interchange the terms often.

And as I said kermitology, I can't recall anyone use that terminology before. I am stating my experience in playing and writing for contests, and playing with those who do it for a living. What ever terminology you want to use, fill your boots, I won't lose any sleep over it. I actually like the term and how you describe its function, just never heard it described as such. On the drum, again, use what ever terminology you like. I haven't heard anyone call a kick a bass drum since I was junior high school (a long time) and have been through four different kits since then, ordering them directly from the manufacturer. I can see your point about using the term as I have heard it when dicussing double kick kits (double bass). Again, what ever terminolgy you use is up to you. All of the guys I've played with and worked with in supplying equipment have all used similar terminology to attain some understand. I guess you could use the word fraggleforp to describe the equipment if you both understood the context. What ever fills your boots.

Changing gears, what do you play and where? [/b][/quote]
So wait, you want to cry over spilled milk when someone uses different terminology (ones that we've heard our counterparts use) but not you say you won't lose any sleep over it?

I'm confused

(PS: I'm a EE student, and I guess since I use the word "latch" and "flip-flop" interchangably and intercorrectly, I guess that means I'm not a EE )

[kermitology]

Lanny, you actually call it a double kick? It's always been a Tama Iron Cobra II double bass pedals to me and my drummer. And Tama actually calls them bass pedals

I play guitar.. I've got a Simon and Patrick acoustic that I share with my dad, a Squire Stratocaster pro-tone (don't write it off because it's a Squire), a JCM900 series 1936 Marshall Half Stack and a VOX AD60VTH head with VC-12 chrome plated foot controller. No whammy bar, cause those are gay.

My next purchase will be a Gibson Les Paul, beauty guitars those are.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Phanuthier@Dec 5 2004, 10:13 PM
Blah blah blah blah blah

I give up. You win. You can say a lot and say nothing at all. Not a single thing was clarified by what you wrote. The base structure structure of rock and roll music, where it was born and the basics of the music is lost on you. I'm tired of watching you chase your tail and I give up. What ever you say is right. I'm done.

:zzzip:

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by kermitology@Dec 6 2004, 12:50 AM
Lanny, you actually call it a double kick? It's always been a Tama Iron Cobra II double bass pedals to me and my drummer. And Tama actually calls them bass pedals

I play guitar.. I've got a Simon and Patrick acoustic that I share with my dad, a Squire Stratocaster pro-tone (don't write it off because it's a Squire), a JCM900 series 1936 Marshall Half Stack and a VOX AD60VTH head with VC-12 chrome plated foot controller. No whammy bar, cause those are gay.

My next purchase will be a Gibson Les Paul, beauty guitars those are.

Some nice equipment kermitology. No worries on the Squire. A good player can make anything sound good. Make sure you hot the gym before you buy that Gibson. They weigh a ton, especially after playing a Strat. I appreciate anyone who can play guitar, an instrument I never managed to get the hang of. What type of music do you play? Do any gigging around Calgary? Would I have seen you?

[kermitology]

Mostly play punk/ska but it's more hard rock than anything these days. Unfortunately the three remaining members of the band are all 4th year engineering kids, so we don't have time to play together all that much. We have cut 2 DIY albums though, one on a 4-track recorded in my living room while we were in highschool, and the other in the drummers basement over Christmas break in second year on a digital 16 track.

[kermitology]

Another reason why Nickelback sucks.. dollars to dimes they only play in Dropped-D tuning.. lazy man.. lazy. If you're playing in dropped D it should be for things that are too fast to play in standard tuning, like Smashing Pumpkins - Jellybelly

[Phanuthier]

Wow, I didn't think it would be that tough for you. Let me duimb this down for you a bit:

1. Pointed out an example (store) calling it a bass drum. The kick drum is when there are 2 pedels, the bass drum itself is without the pedel. In other words, I am correct in calling it a bass drum and you are correct in calling it a kick drum.

2. Pointed out TWO songs that consistantly use dotted eights and or sixteens in repeated 2 bar stanza's (outside of the transition).

3. The music you supplied were funtimental techniques for drummers playing ONLY on a snare drum / drum pad and has absolutely NOTHING to do with set. The fact that you couldn't recognize that off the start shows you know dick about drumming. Ludwig's book, the one you supplied, is heavily used by RCM to test precussion techniques.

4. The drummer: while the role of the drummer is to keep beat, the drummer CAN use something called tempo ruberto to create "tension and release," so long as the rest of the band keeps the same tempo. That creates a feel of speeding up or slowing down while maintaining the same tempo - so that changes in dynamics (pp, p, f, ff) arn't the only ones used). This is used qute frequently in transitions for Nickleback.

5. Improv's can set aside a average drummer from a great drummer. Everybody knows that drummers improv; at least eveyone besides you, who happened to call it a no-no. What a stupid comment that was.

6. Questioning your knowledge of timing - why 4/4? Why is waltz 3/4? You seem to have alot of trouble answereing that. The answere is because since something like 2/4 or 2/2 or 4/2 have the same number of beats, the underlying rule a time signicture is which notes can be emphasized (played louder). This is a very important key for any musician, espcially a drummer. This was Grade 2 or 4 stuff, and learned in introductory (Grade 1) theory, so not being able to explain it really shows your lack of knowledge about music.

7. What is played on a snare during bles, jazz ect... you put the bottum of your drum stick on the drum head, and hit the rim with the side of your stick.. Again, show's your lack of knowledge not knowing that, its used quite often.

8. Your ignorance to what a stanza is - something that you should know for your arguments

Finally, I've said all along that I'm not afraid to prove who I am. Certificates, awards, you name it. I've also said that I'm not afraid to sit down at a drum set or piano with you and show you that I can play. I have awards validating my place in the youth talent show, kiwanis music festivalt; as well, I have letters varifying that I played in such events and fundraisers. That is what your trying to question, right? What I have said all along is that I have played enough music and know enough theory to be able to give cratic a given piece of music. The only thing I claimed in this thread about Nickleback was that their music was simple - I never talked about rock beat or 12 bar blues, because that had no revelence to the level of music that Nickleback played. So far, all you have shown is that you know what 12 bar blues are. That's it, nothing else. Your weak attempts to bullsh*t about what a bass drum is and what the kick have been shot down by the given sites, showing clearly bass drums of a drum set being called a bass drum. You can spit out all the little facts about music you want, but unless you can actually play, please stop bullsh**ting

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Too much. I can't believe I'm replying to you again, but at least this time you have stated clearly some of the things you have been talking about.

"1. Pointed out an example (store) calling it a bass drum. The kick drum is when there are 2 pedels, the bass drum itself is without the pedel. In other words, I am correct in calling it a bass drum and you are correct in calling it a kick drum."

The only time I can recall the "bass drum" being refered to as a bass drum is when the drum was on a stand and being used as a marching band style drum and beat with a mallet. Since I started playing a kit it has always been refered to as a kick. I will happily give on the bass drum, even though I haven't heard of that term used in a long time (maybe I'm showing my age). But I laughed out loud when I read "the kick is when there are two pedals". Hilarious. That is called a double pedal.

"2. Pointed out TWO songs that consistantly use dotted eights and or sixteens in repeated 2 bar stanza's (outside of the transition)."

Again, wow! Two whole pieces. I can link hundreds of sheets that show the standard straight eights on the hats or the ride (oh sorry, suspend in Phaneuf world). That also aligns with 12 bar blues, which you seem to be completely hiding from. Why is that? The funny thing is that you have yet to explain how this phantom dotted eighth note (3/16ths of a beat) happens to work in 4/4. What happens to extra beat? Is it rested? What happens to it?

"3. The music you supplied were funtimental techniques for drummers playing ONLY on a snare drum / drum pad and has absolutely NOTHING to do with set. The fact that you couldn't recognize that off the start shows you know dick about drumming. Ludwig's book, the one you supplied, is heavily used by RCM to test precussion techniques."

Uh bonehead, that sheet music was rudiments. Exercises from which everything is structured off of. Oh, I forgot. According to you drummers don't need structure, don't need stick skills, and don't need anything other than ability to improvise. I produced other sheet music that shows exactly what the basic rock pattern is, but that wasn't good enough for you. time

"4. The drummer: while the role of the drummer is to keep beat, the drummer CAN use something called tempo ruberto to create "tension and release," so long as the rest of the band keeps the same tempo. That creates a feel of speeding up or slowing down while maintaining the same tempo - so that changes in dynamics (pp, p, f, ff) arn't the only ones used). This is used qute frequently in transitions for Nickleback."

And this has never been questioned. It is the drummer's role in a combo to play the part of time keeper and keep a steady beat and regulate te beat as the song requires (a la the tempo changes evident in a song like Stairway to Heaven as a very obvious example). What this does not explain is the disappearance of the phantom beats that you suggest are a standrad thing in rock music (a dotted eighth note just doesn't even itself out and would require a rest that would be easy to pick out, especially in a repetitive manner). Tossing out a tempo change (fortissimo or pianissimo) does not explain the obvious hole in your theory. I am focusing on what you can see and hear, and you cannot hear the break you suggest in the music and it is not evident in most sheet music.

"5. Improv's can set aside a average drummer from a great drummer. Everybody knows that drummers improv; at least eveyone besides you, who happened to call it a no-no. What a stupid comment that was."

I said that improvisation can be a seperator between the good and great drummers. I even named three of the greatest drummers who were not only great improvisors but set the standard for their generation. But I also said, and stand by it, that the most important skill a drummer can have is maintaining a tempo and keeping a very clear beat pattern that the rest of the band can follow. You seem to forget that there are other players out there that rely on the drummer to maintain the timing for a song. Variation and improvisation can be a great thing, and it can lead to train wrecks. Improvisation has its place. During a performance where the other players are expecting something is not the place for an ad lib. I have no idea how you can argue this point at all.

"6. Questioning your knowledge of timing - why 4/4? Why is waltz 3/4? You seem to have alot of trouble answereing that. The answere is because since something like 2/4 or 2/2 or 4/2 have the same number of beats, the underlying rule a time signicture is which notes can be emphasized (played louder). This is a very important key for any musician, espcially a drummer. This was Grade 2 or 4 stuff, and learned in introductory (Grade 1) theory, so not being able to explain it really shows your lack of knowledge about music."

What the hell was there to answer? You were never clear as to what the hell you were asking. I'm still unclear as to wat point you are trying to make and how it relates to rock music? Do you have a point in this regard? Hell, you harped on 3/4 yet haven't explained a damn thing about it yourself. You ask questions that make no sense and then follow them up with no answer yourself. What point were you trying to make?

"7. What is played on a snare during bles, jazz ect... you put the bottum of your drum stick on the drum head, and hit the rim with the side of your stick.. Again, show's your lack of knowledge not knowing that, its used quite often."

Oh, you mean a rimshot? Again, you were so unlear as to what the hell you were asking. You're original question was something along the lines of "what do you strike the head with, adding that it wasn't your stick". Now I sort of see where you are going. You can utilitze lots of different techniques and tools to make a beat on the drum. Everything from different types of sticks to brushed to using dampening agents on the head itself.

"8. Your ignorance to what a stanza is - something that you should know for your arguments"

Oh, I am very aware of what a stanza is. The confusion is you seem to think that a two bar stanza is it for music. I don't agree and believe that a four bar stanza (16 beats) is the predominant stanza in rock music. This is actually the under lying argument as the four bar stanza aligns with 12 bar blues, the basis for rock and roll, and something you barely even acknowledge exists. Until you grasp what 12 bar blues is you will never grasp rock music IMO.

Finally, I've said all along that I'm not afraid to prove who I am. Certificates, awards, you name it. I've also said that I'm not afraid to sit down at a drum set or piano with you and show you that I can play. I have awards validating my place in the youth talent show, kiwanis music festivalt; as well, I have letters varifying that I played in such events and fundraisers. That is what your trying to question, right? What I have said all along is that I have played enough music and know enough theory to be able to give cratic a given piece of music. The only thing I claimed in this thread about Nickleback was that their music was simple - I never talked about rock beat or 12 bar blues, because that had no revelence to the level of music that Nickleback played. So far, all you have shown is that you know what 12 bar blues are. That's it, nothing else. Your weak attempts to bullsh*t about what a bass drum is and what the kick have been shot down by the given sites, showing clearly bass drums of a drum set being called a bass drum. You can spit out all the little facts about music you want, but unless you can actually play, please stop bullsh**ting

Yeah, and I could throw out all the names I have played with too, but that doesn't matter to the argument and I highly doubt you would know many of them since we were playing about the time you were born. You and your little pieces of paper make me laugh. You're always running your resume out like its going to impress people, but the fact of the matter is that you are extremely unimpressive. And trust me, I am not afraid to sit down at a kit and cut heads with you any time. Even not having played in three years I know I could pick up sticks and still kick your ass playing with any ensemble. I have 30 plus years of playing experience under my belt, so going up against you and your classical training doesn't scare me much. Something tells me that you can hammer out a paradiddle with the best of them, but couldn't play off another three players worth a damn, and that's what music is all about. Frankly, if your drumming is as good as your thought processes and spelling I can only imagine how bad your skills are.

[Phanuthier]

Man your a piece of work

1. I called a kick 1 pedel. The double kick was 2 pedels. Read it again genius

2. And I can link hundreads of MODERN DAY music INCLUDING Nickleback that use what I described.

3. Missing beat? Uhh... ever cosidered the 16th? If you dont' get it, forget about it. I guess it'll be something I have to show you since I've explained it a number of times. In the meantime, listen to some modern-day music and see that constant eighths on the high hat arn't used that often anymore.

4. What your talking about ("Phantum beat") has nothing to do with what I was saying about Rubato. That was a whole seperate argument about you saying that a drummer HAS to keep constant time, whereas I was saying that if you had bothered to listened to music these days, you can see drummers create tension and release through the "feel" of forcing forwards or backwards.

5. Does someone else want to set this tool straight for me? I think I've repeated myself here enough.

6. I asked you simply what was the difference between all the time signictures. 4.4 has 4 quarters, why is that different from 2/2 who also has 4 quarters?

7. No, wrong again. A rimshot is when you hit the head and the rim at the same time. This is different.

8. Where did I say that? God, AGAIN, I said that the common beat is repeated alot in 2 bar stanza's.

(Last paragraph)
I had no intention of proving my worth. In fact, I didn't even expect you to ask, but when you started doubting me, I gave you my credentials. Simply put, I never expected this to be a competition of who was better, becasue I don't know you in person. What I do know, however, is that I have a high enough level of music to be able to cretic a piece of music or band, which I have done. What you have done, just like every other convo you decide to stick your butt in, is come flaming out with inflammatory remarks, insults and name calling. Way to go, Lanny. As sadi before, music is a interest, not a profession for me.

As for me... you laugh at what you want. I have a certain level of musical skill certified by the RCM, and I have played in one of the, if not, top non-profit percussion ensambles in Canada. From your posts, you seemed like a royal stiff who had never touched a drum set in your life, but I could be wrong. While you haven't played in 3 years, I quit drums about 2 years ago when I left for school and I still think I have enough to play with anyone. I know you're a arrogant little ####, and while you go around pointing fingers, you might want to look into the mirror about who starts the inflammatory remarks. Again, just to repeat for you, my initlal point was that I had played enough music to know what is easy and what is simple. You challenged me to see what I got, so I delivered. I never said I was better then you or anyone else, I was merely proving that who I was. Unlike you, I don't have the inferiority complex of wanting to see who's better, or to go around playing one-upmanship over a message board.

(PS: Yeah, my spelling sucks. I know it. But welcome 2004, where there is spell check to cover your ass! Spelling sure isn't hurting me in school, so I'm not overly worried. Besides, some of the best writers in the world can't spell worth dick.)