The Alpha Course

[Azure]

Well said Mayer.

Even so, I only challenge the belief Mormons have. I would never tell them that their belief is wrong(who am I to do so?).

Same with most other religions. I took world religions in high school just to give me more understanding of the world around me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Mayer

Here's one obvious standard. A problem I have with Mormons and JW's calling themselves "Christians", and thats the fact that they feel the need to change some things in the Bible, as well as add onto it. If you are a true Christian, you believe the Bible is God inspired word, and it is final. I can't tell you how many times I've had arguements with Mormons after they've referred to themselves as Christians. I can't stand it.

People want to talk about brainwashed, they need to talk about those 2 groups.

The bible you read has been changed and added onto.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The bible you read has been changed and added onto.

Exactly, even evangelical Christian scholars agree the Bible is an compiled work put together by centuries of editorial process by committee. Even Protestants have picked and chosen the books to include and exclude in their Bibles versus that of Catholics (Protestant Apocrypha) and those of various Orthodox groups in relatively recent centuries. There wasn't even a defined ecumenical list of what books were proper in Christendom until the Council of Trent in the 1500s.

[Manson?]

Please don't make any implications by what I'm about to say...
To further what RougeUnderoos just wrote...
Mayer, do you believe the Catholic church or the greek orthodox to be christian??....assuming you do because you only singled out mormons and JW's....have you heard of what protestants(...assuming you are one...) call the 'apocrypha'???
It is in reference to the seventeen books that exist in the two respected christian sects' bibles IN ADDITION to the 39 books of the old testament.
One funny thing about Christianity is that within it exists a broad spectrum (indeed the largest) of sects who claim true orthodoxy. In other words, who believe that they are the truest form of christianity.
In closing, whether or not you care is not an issue but I am a little dissappointed by the uneducated outspoken opponents of and proponents of this religious discussion. Learn the facts before the petty bickering.

[Manson?]

To further what I said about learning the facts, if you look indepth at the three western religions you will be fascinated at the evolution taken place within them to fit political needs. Also the fluidity and subtleness with which their ideologies intertwine with eachother.

[Mayer]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Exactly, even evangelical Christian scholars agree the Bible is an compiled work put together by centuries of editorial process by committee. Even Protestants have picked and chosen the books to include and exclude in their Bibles versus that of Catholics (Protestant Apocrypha) and those of various Orthodox groups in relatively recent centuries. There wasn't even a defined ecumenical list of what books were proper in Christendom until the Council of Trent in the 1500s.

I know what you are saying. A good friend of mine who has taken about 10 years worth of biblical/historical studies in this area did an extensive research project on this very subject. I wish I still had a copy of it because it gave a very strong arguement to the fact that the bible is incredibly similar to what was first written. If I find it I will definitly post key points from it, because I can't do a good job of explaining it.

The Bible I read, I believe is final. When did the Book of Mormon get created? Wasn't it in the 60's?

[Manson?]

To go even deeper and more preachy, it is not unusual for such condemnation of other religions by the christian and the condemnation of all religion by the atheist but one funny thing about this thread is that the so-called argument with in it is circular. When you consider the concept of hermaneutics you see that neither side here will further or sway the other. When two conflicting beliefs are bashing heads it is clear that neither is interested in constructive discussion. They have already made their believes known and do not care which way or the other what the other side says. WHen you take an argument from an insider's perspective ie the christian and the atheist neither is going to step outside their self-defined constructs. Please note this and desist, while I step off of my high horse.....

[Mayer]

Originally Posted by Manson?

Please don't make any implications by what I'm about to say...
To further what RougeUnderoos just wrote...
Mayer, do you believe the Catholic church or the greek orthodox to be christian??....assuming you do because you only singled out mormons and JW's....have you heard of what protestants(...assuming you are one...) call the 'apocrypha'???
It is in reference to the seventeen books that exist in the two respected christian sects' bibles IN ADDITION to the 39 books of the old testament.
One funny thing about Christianity is that within it exists a broad spectrum (indeed the largest) of sects who claim true orthodoxy. In other words, who believe that they are the truest form of christianity.
In closing, whether or not you care is not an issue but I am a little dissappointed by the uneducated outspoken opponents of and proponents of this religious discussion. Learn the facts before the petty bickering.

I've said many times I don't claim to know everything about this, and I don't think what is going on is really bickering. It feels like more of a discussion.

[Mayer]

Originally Posted by Manson?

To go even deeper and more preachy, it is not unusual for such condemnation of other religions by the christian and the condemnation of all religion by the atheist but one funny thing about this thread is that the so-called argument with in it is circular. When you consider the concept of hermaneutics you see that neither side here will further or sway the other. When two conflicting beliefs are bashing heads it is clear that neither is interested in constructive discussion. They have already made their believes known and do not care which way or the other what the other side says. WHen you take an argument from an insider's perspective ie the christian and the atheist neither is going to step outside their self-defined constructs. Please note this and desist, while I step off of my high horse.....

Great post! I agree fully. I try my hardest to be as open-minded as I can, but sometimes it doesn't work.

I appreciate your insight though for sure. You seem very knowledgable on the subject.

[Manson?]

Originally Posted by Mayer

I know what you are saying. A good friend of mine who has taken about 10 years worth of biblical/historical studies in this area did an extensive research project on this very subject. I wish I still had a copy of it because it gave a very strong arguement to the fact that the bible is incredibly similar to what was first written. If I find it I will definitly post key points from it, because I can't do a good job of explaining it.

The Bible I read, I believe is final. When did the Book of Mormon get created? Wasn't it in the 60's?

First copy of the book of mormon was in 1830.
Look at it this way though. Imagine yourself as a Jewish Christian in 40 CE right?? or better yet as a sadduccitical Jew. Think how nutty the Christian looked. The Christian chose to follow this upstart pharisee (Jesus) who was saying he was the son of God.
My point is don't be skeptical just because your brand of Christianity has roots you believe to be much older and have already made known believe to be the only true form of...

[Ford Prefect]

This thread has reminded me of an interesting sermon I heard from a Roman Catholic priest when I was younger. He was a real fire and brimstoner. He told us (the congregation) that unless we were virgins OR an RC priest, we would go to hell. I remember thinking that his use of the word "or" was kind of amusing. Turns out it was of some importance to him ... he was later convicted and sent to jail for what he did with some of the choir boys under his care.

Which segues nicely to the burning question ... does anybody have any extra sacrificial virgins they want'a get rid of?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well said Mayer.

Even so, I only challenge the belief Mormons have. I would never tell them that their belief is wrong(who am I to do so?).

Same with most other religions. I took world religions in high school just to give me more understanding of the world around me.

I studied Mormonism a few sumer back. If one has made an effort to understand another religion I believe one has the right to say if they are right or wrong. Personaly I found it to be overly controling and cultish in nature.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Manson?

To further what I said about learning the facts, if you look indepth at the three western religions you will be fascinated at the evolution taken place within them to fit political needs. Also the fluidity and subtleness with which their ideologies intertwine with eachother.

I think one of the most fascinating aspects of religion is the sort of cognitive dissonance of how elements of the religion are politically or culturally created or how one sect or denomination's claims are no different in structure than those of others...yet most of their memberships are ignorant or willfully ignorant of them.

IE: Just how many Christian denominations claim they are the true religion, how many attempts at revival of the 1st century Church are so vastly different (because these groups all seem to assume something is wrong with the modern one)...or even something down to many roots of Catholic tradition being transferred elements of the previous pagan society or simply human nature (Saint worship, icons, relics, etc.). I'm going off random points here, but one of my issues with a lot of organized religion is that they take minor cues that are probably culturally or historically motivated and turn them into strict and defined rules yet they seem to ignore others completely in a selective way. How many Christian women cover their heads when they pray like Corinthians expressly says they should?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Manson?

First copy of the book of mormon was in 1830.
Look at it this way though. Imagine yourself as a Jewish Christian in 40 CE right?? or better yet as a sadduccitical Jew. Think how nutty the Christian looked. The Christian chose to follow this upstart pharisee (Jesus) who was saying he was the son of God.
My point is don't be skeptical just because your brand of Christianity has roots you believe to be much older and have already made known believe to be the only true form of...

Yes, Christianity began as a so-called cult in the first place, only the benefit of history (and perhaps to it's credit, longevity) assures much of it's credibility as many of the controversies or issues are long forgotten or simply ignored. The disadvantage of Mormanism and JW's is that their roots were laid down only very recently and yes I can say both have serious flaws that even their best apologetics have difficulty answering.

On another wierd tangent, if you go into Jehovah's Witnesses and other escatological religions, it's so fascinating to me how the imminent apocalypse is always predicted in the current time or at least very soon or impending, interpreted losely on the days current events. I've yet to see a religion claim that the end is thousands of years away, etc. (except science which says the end is in 5 billion years when the Sun explodes) Just another aspect of human egoism to only thing of themselves in the here and now I suppose.

[Manson?]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Yes, Christianity began as a so-called cult in the first place, only the benefit of history (and perhaps to it's credit, longevity) assures much of it's credibility as many of the controversies or issues are long forgotten or simply ignored. The disadvantage of Mormanism and JW's is that their roots were laid down only very recently and yes I can say both have serious flaws that even their best apologetics have difficulty answering.

In more or less his words, Ron L. Hubbard (AKA the first scientologist) said "the best way to make money is to start a religion." While I do not know a tonne about either mormons or JW's I have had interaction with both peoples and found them quite odd. The Hubbard quote kind of reflects the motives I believe to be prominent in JW and Mrmns. One thing I find quite odd about mormons is the controlling manipulative nature children are raised within the society. It is not uncommon knowledge that a child's mind until age 12-13 is as malleable as clay and it is in these formulative years alot of assumption and bias is gained. These years are when young mormons take instruction at the temple from 5:30 to 8:00 AM everyday. This is what in layman's terms I would call brainwashing. To protect what I have said, I am not sure if this practice exists within all families and branches of the religion.
Also if you want a scary insider story of a Jehovah's Witness family read The Truth Book by Joy Castro. Very sad, very interesting.
I am sorry if any bias offends, but that is what makes things interesting, isn''t it??

[Manson?]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

On another wierd tangent, if you go into Jehovah's Witnesses and other escatological religions, it's so fascinating to me how the imminent apocalypse is always predicted in the current time or at least very soon or impending, interpreted losely on the days current events. I've yet to see a religion claim that the end is thousands of years away, etc. (except science which says the end is in 5 billion years when the Sun explodes) Just another aspect of human egoism to only thing of themselves in the here and now I suppose.

Yes, it is a funny Western religious thing though, all operate on a linear scale. It's inescapable.

[Hack&Lube]

I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to have some genuine open-minded religious discussion on intellectual and accomodating lines versus what we usually get here on CP which is mainly Cheese et. al vs. others slinging barbs back and forth..

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

How many Christian women cover their heads when they pray like Corinthians expressly says they should?

Almost all the Anabaptist women do that...Quakers, Hutterites, Mennonites..

You're right though, it is often forgotten.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Mayer

Here's one obvious standard. A problem I have with Mormons and JW's calling themselves "Christians", and thats the fact that they feel the need to change some things in the Bible, as well as add onto it. If you are a true Christian, you believe the Bible is God inspired word, and it is final. I can't tell you how many times I've had arguements with Mormons after they've referred to themselves as Christians. I can't stand it.

People want to talk about brainwashed, they need to talk about those 2 groups.

And I probably wouldn't argue about Mormons or JWs as their doctrine is quite radically different.

I was thinking more along the lines though of different denominations and groups within the salvation through accepting Christ as Lord groups.

A good example is Pat Robertson.. Some would say a great man and a great leader. Yet others would point to his many failed prophecies and say he's a false prophet. But if he is a false prophet, then that's millions of his followers who would say they are Christians but aren't?

Or the whole Faith movement a while back, some called it a cult while others believed it was the next great revelation.

Some groups believe the Bible should be taken 100% literally, others believe it is inspired but not literal. The first would probably say the latter are all deceived. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

[Azure]

There are tons of false prophets Photon...take a look at what Hal Lindsey has said, and done.

To me he is a nutjob of the highest accord...sadly so many of the Christian faith believe in his crap.

I would hesitate to affiliate myself with any church that publicly declares a belief in any sort of prophecy.

And just for the record...Pat Robertson is an idiot.