Violence in Gaza...

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Looger

wow... a lot of people here pretty concerned with 'blame' and 'fault'!

if you need me, i'll be over here in 'reality'.

It must get pretty lonely in Looger's reality.

In any case you have said a couple times that Israel's objective is extermination. Could you provide some quotes?

In my world I've seen countless Arabs say they want to exterminate Israel: From children to leaders of many Arab countries. I personally don't
believe that Israel could win a peace with the likes of Syria or Iran until
their governments are drastically changed. As for the people of Palestine; they have received more UN aid annually then any other country in the world. The conditions they live in has much to do with their own governments desire to buy weapons rather than care for their people. Arafat died a multimillionaire. Where did this money come from if it wasn't the mouths of his own people?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

It must get pretty lonely in Looger's reality.

not really - just me and other people that don't get their history from television.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

In any case you have said a couple times that Israel's objective is extermination. Could you provide some quotes?

uh, i said that the end result, unless israel's thinking / our unconditional backing changes, can only be extermination / total displacement. i personally don't see israel's thinking changing at all, and they have no accountability whatsoever on the world stage due to our support, thus the endgame is a one-way ticket.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

In my world I've seen countless Arabs say they want to exterminate Israel: From children to leaders of many Arab countries. I personally don't
believe that Israel could win a peace with the likes of Syria or Iran until
their governments are drastically changed. As for the people of Palestine; they have received more UN aid annually then any other country in the world. The conditions they live in has much to do with their own governments desire to buy weapons rather than care for their people. Arafat died a multimillionaire. Where did this money come from if it wasn't the mouths of his own people?

i'm not picking sides here - and i really wish people would stop accusing me of it.

i am merely pointing out what many here are unaware of - that this extremism has been shepherded, prodded, funded, directed, by our tax dollars for a reason. on top of all that some actual real injustice has to occur to radicalize people in the first place, and they cannot engage in international terror without a bankroll.

syria and iran have anti-semitism in their textbooks, it is ugly stuff. future generations screwed. it's my desire to understand why they would do that, that led me to discover that there is a reason they see zionist conspiracies under every bed and in every closet. ONCE AGAIN it doesn't 'justify it' or 'excuse it' but there is a difference between excuse and reason.

this doesn't 'excuse' any action or 'justify' something - so please, enough with the accusations here. i'm no big supporter of arafat, the dude sold his people out for a few bucks on many an occasion, it is a total joke.

jabotinsky is one quotable zionist, i urge any and all interested to read 'iron wall'. it is stunning.

it was thrown at me on this site in an earlier discussion that he wasn't a 'main leader' of zionism, that his brand of zionism wasn't that big of a thing... interesting that he's on the money and has streets named after him...

[Looger]

wow, syria and iran sure seem to be on peoples' minds...

meanwhile the runaway leader in international islamic terror funding and radical mosque construction, saudi arabia, gets a huge pass.

this kind of thinking is the problem here. sickening.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Looger...you are like the energizer bunny. You just keep going....and that is not ment as an insult. I admire your passion on the subject, even though I disagree with most of your conspiracy stuff.

[Looger]

well, i'm not too busy right now.

EDIT: there are people trying to start a very big war right now.

i suppose they always are, but right now the pieces are in place better than usual. it's not very good.

EDIT 2: and meanwhile bin laden brothers construction is building US bases in iraq!!!

you just could not sell a story this bizarre.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

wow, syria and iran sure seem to be on peoples' minds...

meanwhile the runaway leader in international islamic terror funding and radical mosque construction, saudi arabia, gets a huge pass.

this kind of thinking is the problem here. sickening.

I agree. Saudia Arabia is like one of those **** disdurbers who never openly says anything bad about someone or wants any direct confrontation....they like to go whisper in peoples ears about their so called enemy.....a person that pretends he is everyones friend but always is looking to turn everyone against each other and once it happens they leave the room and do not get involved.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I agree. Saudia Arabia is like one of those **** disdurbers who never openly says anything bad about someone or wants any direct confrontation....they like to go whisper in peoples ears about their so called enemy.....a person that pretends he is everyones friend but always is looking to turn everyone against each other and once it happens they leave the room and do not get involved.

so...

ask some fundamental questions aboot this, why this is, why they are tolerated in doing all of this.

pretty quick borders fall away and corporations / agendas / international finance take shape.

[jolinar of malkshor]

They are tolerated because they are not directly opposing, attacking or leading other countries to believe they are about to attack or threaten the sovereignty of another country....that is why.

[Looger]

'support terror or harbour terror...'

hmmmm coulda swored i hearded dat sumwhere hyuk!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Not saying it is right....but that is the reason.

[eazyduzzit]

IMO.

I believe the Palestinians have the right to attack Israelis illegaly settled on there land.

Attacks in Tel Aviv? Definitely not, but little outposts dotted all around the West Bank. You bet your ass.

They have just as much of a right to defend what is suppose to be theres as Israel defends herself.

/controversy

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Looger

wow, syria and iran sure seem to be on peoples' minds...

meanwhile the runaway leader in international islamic terror funding and radical mosque construction, saudi arabia, gets a huge pass.

this kind of thinking is the problem here. sickening.

I used Syria and Iran as examples because of their very public opposition
to Israel. I wasn't giving Saudi Arabia a pass. I just read a story about some text books in a Saudi Arabian school that call Jews and Christians Apes and Pigs.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ool/article.do

If America stops supporting Israel they will be destroyed by the Arab countries around them in short order. I don't see that as a solution. If Israel is forced to give up the high ground and with drawl to their original UN allocated borders there won't be peace. Israel will just have lost their strategic advantage and will suffer more casualties. Land for peace only works if your enemy only seeks land. This obviously is not the case here with the Arabs. As I said before: The Arab world is on record desiring the extermination of Israel.

Israel obviously desires both land and peace. Land because it was historically theirs and given to them by God. Land because of the need for it to sustain their increasing population. Certain land because it gives them a military edge when there is conflict. Israel has given up some land (under pressure) in an attempt to purchase peace. Although this has had some success the results have been not been true lasting peace and won't be as long as the Arabs mind set remains unchanged.

[Looger]

this is the entire point:

it's the way that israel / zionism has treated the arabs from day 1 that IS THE REASON that all the hatred exists in the first place.

this idea that 'the arabs' are totally united and dream of nothing but killing jews is complete propoganda garbage, even if it were true israel could probably hold them off!

land for peace - ha let's try not killing top arab scientists for being too smart, let's try not looking at arabs like hitler looked at the poles, first.

THIS IS THE CAUSE.

as soon as arabs are equal to jews in the minds of israel's policy makers, as soon as they are human, we may have a spark that we can deal with.

and there's no need to completely pull all support from israel - like a dozen times in this thread i said 'unconditional' support is the problem.

why would israel ever try to have real peace, if they can simply slowly win? eventually the refugees will die. eventually the palestinians will leave if there's no food and future. time is on their side.

real peace can only come from honest brokers, which the israelis are not even close to being. all that press for ehud barak and how he was the dove - well he may have been, too bad that land he dangled in front of the palestinians as part of negotiations was getting settlements built on it as they spoke!!!

put conditions on the support. that's it. it's a start.

you don't have to choose between 'all the arabs killing all the jooos' and the current state of affairs, that is total crap.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Not saying it is right....but that is the reason.

and i'm telling you that it's total bull$hit and if you believe that's even a reason i have a bridge i want to sell you.

#1 suspect country in 9/11: saudi arabia, 15 of 19 hijackers

#2 suspect country in 9/11: pakistan, the head of their intelligence agency wired mohammad atta $100,000!!!!!!!!!!!!

the war on terror is complete and total garbage, it is a war to increase terror, a war to balkanize, a war to START the war of civiliazations.

EDIT: and that is all assuming there's no funny business!!!

and there is.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Looger

wow, syria and iran sure seem to be on peoples' minds...

meanwhile the runaway leader in international islamic terror funding and radical mosque construction, saudi arabia, gets a huge pass.

this kind of thinking is the problem here. sickening.

And Saudi Arabia has over a billion, or is it trillion dollars invested in the US economy.

I agree with the terror funding, but, the US is between a rock and a hard place with what they should do about it.

Of course, given the reaction to Iraq, I would assume everyone agrees that SA should clean up their own mess.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

IMO.

I believe the Palestinians have the right to attack Israelis illegaly settled on there land.

Attacks in Tel Aviv? Definitely not, but little outposts dotted all around the West Bank. You bet your ass.

They have just as much of a right to defend what is suppose to be theres as Israel defends herself.

/controversy

Whoa....you mean suicide bombers have the right to blow up innocent civilians?

Oh wait, suicide bombers don't even attack the land that is rightfully theirs. They just go straight in Tel Aviv and kill as many people as possible.

So much for the belief that Palestinians are defending their homeland.

[Looger]

i've got an idea for you Azure, that will help you understand the dynamics at work here because obviously you're confused.

go over to your neighbour's yard, and with no preamble or conversation, just start kicking his dog. don't let anything stop you from this goal - your neighbour will yell at you but just keep kicking that pooch.

phone me from the emergency room, should you be able to, and explain to me how his actions weren't at all justified or proper.

now, i can warn you what i think will happen, i mean let's say i've read a book on dog-kicking consequences. but that doesn't mean i'm 'on his side'. it means that when peoples' lives and livelihood and happiness are attacked they respond in kind.

better yet break into my house - and i'll give you a personal demonstration of the survival instinct and exactly what consequences it is capable of dishing out.

oh and good luck.

[Azure]

Say Looger, shall we blame this on Israel too...

"The political program of the unity government does not contain any explicit or implicit recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Nor does it include any concession on Hamas's principles and positions. Hamas will continue to abide by its own program, especially regarding the resistance and the refusal to recognize Israel."

I give this lasting peace accord a week before violence breaks out again.

From todays Wall Street Journal...

If the experience of Gaza -- from which Israel removed its settlements in 2005 -- demonstrates anything, it is that the absence of Israeli occupation is not a sufficient condition for a Palestinian state.

The first such condition would be a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. That doesn't exist today in the Palestinian Authority, where various militias answer to contending sides of the same government. A second condition is that it honor the agreements on which it is based. The PA is a creature of the Oslo Accords, which require Palestinians to recognize Israel's right to exist. By refusing to do so, Hamas calls into question the legal basis of the Authority itself. A third condition is that the state be self-governing. But Prime Minister Haniyeh answers to Hamas supremo Khaled Mashaal, who is based in Damascus and was present at yesterday's conference with King Abdullah.

All this raises fundamental questions about the political viability of a Palestinian state.

Oh...didn't Israel withdraw from the disputed area? Gaza?

So what excuse does Palenstine have now?

[Azure]

.....


The accord came in the form of a letter from Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, designating Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas to form the government.

a) I designate you to form the upcoming Palestinian government within the time specified under the basic law (five weeks).

b) After forming the government and presenting it to us, it should be presented to the Palestinian Legislative Council for a vote of confidence.

c) I call upon you as the head of the upcoming Palestinian government to commit to the higher interests of the Palestinian people, to preserve its rights and to preserve its achievements and to develop them, and to work in order to achieve its national goals as was approved by the Palestine National Council, the clauses of the Basic Law and the National Reconciliation Document...

Based on this, I call upon you to respect international resolutions and the agreements signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (referring to peace accords with Israel).

Hmm, I wonder if it will last?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823792.html

[Looger]

i don't see things in your twisted and warped 'blame' world, Azure...

i think that in general, people will ALWAYS get away with - collectively or individually - what conditions will allow them too.

if there are no consequences for the israelis screwing over the palestinians, then they can not help themselves.

it is our fault for allowing this absurd situation to continue even one more minute.

that is the only 'blame' here. the only 'fault' here.

this thread is ~100 posts and they're mostly you and me, and you still are putting assumptions and even words in my mouth and completely ignoring my points. amazing.

one day you'll just have to think on your own.

not today obviously, but one day perhaps.